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Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by olliej on Monday December 31, 2018 @09:12AM (#18794539)
Still amazing to me that owners and equity firms get money before pension funds. The literal theft - a pension is part of your income, and being able to sell off a company without paying off pension debts literally means retroactively stealing wages from workers.

Remember that banks, etc all have insurance on their debt, apparently that doesn’t matter - companies are simply stealing from money that is not theirs, and that’s apparently ok.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by prklmn on Monday December 31, 2018 @09:25AM (#18794588)
It’s only ok because they’ve written all the laws for themselves. Of course the common person would not deem this to be ok.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by late2part on Monday December 31, 2018 @10:05AM (#18794746)
We the people of the United States of America elect the people that write the laws. If we don't like what they're doing, vote them out and vote in people that will write the laws we want.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by michaelt on Monday December 31, 2018 @10:33AM (#18794882)
To do that should I vote Democrat, Republican or Independent?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by JumpCrisscross on Monday December 31, 2018 @10:48AM (#18794997)
> should I vote Democrat, Republican or Independent?

You should vote in your jurisdictions’ meaningful primaries, get involved with campaigns and causes that represent you and organise like-minded citizens.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by dev_dull on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:05AM (#18795114)
Depends on if you want the government to expand, expand a lot, or dissolve.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by ddingus on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:09PM (#18795932)
Vote Progressive, small money politics. 7 of those people got elected this last cycle. There will be a small caucus in the house. It's a start.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by 50656E6973 on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:20PM (#18796353)
That doesn't seem to be working.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by adamzk on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:32AM (#18799454)
How do you vote somebody out?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Monday December 31, 2018 @10:46AM (#18794980)
The government does the same thing with SS. If you pass away before collecting benefits, those benefits aren't passed on to those who inherit your estate.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by jandrese on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:56PM (#18796577)
Social Security isn't an investment. It's more like an insurance scheme against old age. Everybody pays into the pot and that is divvied up among everybody who qualifies (retirees).
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Monday December 31, 2018 @04:13PM (#18797068)
Is that not what a pension is for workers who qualify by working at a company long enough?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:21AM (#18795219)
That's not wage theft though. You can't be paid after you're dead. Inheritance is just legalized aristocracy.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by madengr on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:14PM (#18795974)
So you are supposed to just give your estate to the government? Fuck that.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Monday December 31, 2018 @03:23PM (#18796742)
Why not? Then the wealth can be distributed to everyone fairly. Having this safety net available for everyone and not just the rich would reduce the need for wealth hoarding in the first place. Your ideology has no justification besides your own particular interest in the class position of your offspring.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by aswanson on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:49PM (#18801575)
Because I want my children to benefit and build on my life's efforts.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:17PM (#18809758)
And I don't want you to be able to do that. If this is supposed to be a rational position you're going to need more justification than "you want it".
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Friday January 04, 2019 @08:31AM (#18823841)
That's a truly horrendous position you've taken. You're arguing that it is somehow rational to not want a child to benefit from his or her caretakers. The only logical conclusion from this is why stop at death? Why don't we make it so it's illegal for a parent to take any action that provides any sort of benefit for their children, and all children are dependent upon the state from birth, with all adults paying a mandatory 'childcare' tax. This way all children can start out life on 100% equal footing, and also without any opportunity to experience what a parent's love and sacrifice really is. What a dystopian future you desire.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Friday January 04, 2019 @04:25PM (#18827786)
Actually, we live in quite a dystopian reality. Your only argument is a slippery slope fallacy. I never said that a child should not benefit from their caretakers. Only that they should not inherit economic wealth which they did not produce.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Sunday January 06, 2019 @03:37PM (#18840536)
So explain what's the tangible difference between receiving benefits while the parent is alive and after they're dead? Either way the child is inheriting economic wealth they didn't produce, which shines a light on the horrendousness of your argument.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:50PM (#18849274)
Instead of calling my argument horrendous with no justification, maybe you could try engaging with it. I, too, would like to just call you a right-wing libertarian nutjob or something like that and move on with life, but hopefully something better can happen. :)

> Either way the child is inheriting economic wealth they didn't produce

There isn't a whole lot. But you're missing the point of parenting. Hint: it's not financial support. You can't write a baby a check for $1M, plop it down in an empty house and expect it to live a good life. After you die you're not doing any of the stuff that actually makes having a parent valuable to a child relative to receiving the necessary financial support (which will not even be available to working class children under your proposed system).

Maybe if you were confident your children would be adequately taken care of if you died, you wouldn't have to work so hard saving up a nest egg and would actually have more time to be a parent.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by aswanson on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @08:05PM (#18811946)
Most parents want that. An overwhelming majority, in fact. Not just me. Good enough?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Friday January 04, 2019 @04:28PM (#18827802)
Nope. I would argue that most parents want that because the economic system we live in compels them to.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by aswanson on Monday January 07, 2019 @08:13AM (#18844828)
It also compels me to pay my bills and be responsible with my money. Such is life.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by PurpleBoxDragon on Monday December 31, 2018 @04:00PM (#18796988)
>Then the wealth can be distributed to everyone fairly.

Who determines what is fair?

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by kenmicklas on Monday January 07, 2019 @02:51PM (#18849280)
Divide evenly by number of people? It's really not that difficult.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by aswanson on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:50PM (#18801578)
Amen.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:31AM (#18795283)
You also lose your benefits if you move to another country and give up your citizenship. What do you call it then?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by paulie_a on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:13PM (#18795534)
Make a conscious and overt decision to forfeit those accumulated benefits.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by bsbechtel on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:15PM (#18795981)
Sounds a lot like wage theft to me. If a company tried to do that to employees who left, that's what it would be called.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by paulie_a on Monday December 31, 2018 @06:48PM (#18797893)
How so? You leave, they stop paying you. Any funds for retirement is your account. You leave the country and renounce citizenship, you no longer get the benefits of citizenship which includes social security. That seems pretty fair.

And yes a company doing that is a completely different situation. Like it or not we pay into a pool that if you are a citizen you will receive benefits. You also pay into an account for your 401k that you own. Renouncing citizenship, you walked away from the former account.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by samfisher83 on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:59AM (#18795448)
Equity holders are pretty low on the totem pole. Pension holders would have higher bk priority.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by pm24601 on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:21PM (#18795587)
Reread the article. Clearly the PE owners have figured out exactly how to get all their money out before bankruptcy.

Sears, Toys R' Us, Marsh .... all brought by PE firms. All drained dry by interest payments, until there is nothing left.

The vampires have already gotten all the blood out of the body before bankruptcy occurs.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by ChrisLomont on Monday December 31, 2018 @11:45AM (#18795360)
>a pension is part of your income

It's usually part of a future worker's income. That is how they are underfunded. If the employee paid into a fund then these problems would happen less.

The problem is it's a promise to pay future money to today workers in the future, and when future money does not pan out, there is no reason one debt holder (pensioner) should have absolute precedence over another (lender, who sometimes lends enough to get the company past bad times).

For example, putting a pensioner absolutely first would make lenders stay away, and any companies that have a chance of being saved by lenders would then die, causing more pain.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by eropple on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:56PM (#18795839)
> there is no reason one debt holder (pensioner) should have absolute precedence over another (lender, who sometimes lends enough to get the company past bad times).

Yes, there is a reason: people matter more than companies. Lenders can price that risk in. If that makes lenders "stay away"? Then the executive teams that get their golden parachutes get screwed too, and I'm frankly pretty okay with that.

And let's be real: pensions are virtually never (you might find one large example; you won't find ten) destroyed to save a business. They're destroyed to make their assets worth more in a flip. We need not be dishonest in this discussion.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by RestlessMind on Monday December 31, 2018 @01:24PM (#18796030)
If lenders stay away, then execs get screwed and rest of the company gets screwed as well because now everyone is out of their jobs. Isn't that a worse outcome overall?
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by eropple on Monday December 31, 2018 @02:04PM (#18796269)
The majority, when it isn't all, are functionally already out of their jobs. These bridge investments exist to provide the runway gut the company and sell off its assets. I have no real problem with PE firms not getting to do that at the expense of people who the company have promised things to.
Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by tw04 on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:27PM (#18795631)
>For example, putting a pensioner absolutely first would make lenders stay away, and any companies that have a chance of being saved by lenders would then die, causing more pain.

And when is the last time one of these companies had their pensions cut, executives paid, then turned around the ship to be successful?

I mean, that's a great story on paper, but it's never the way this plays out. BEST CASE a PE firm buys up the company then sells off the assets at a profit to themselves. The workers NEVER come out ahead and almost universally would be better off if the company went under leaving them with whatever the partial pension funding was.

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @10:28AM (#18856157)
>And when is the last time one of these companies had their pensions cut, executives paid, then turned around the ship to be successful?

GM just did that during the recession, saving a huge number of jobs, and enabling GM to pay partial pensions. In fact, probably any company (and municipality, of which there are many) that went through or was near bankruptcy and turned around did so because of access to capital.

So you claim it never happens. I claim it happens in almost every case where some company was saved. Loans don't magically appear to help places without access to capital markets, which means in almost all cases PE.

That you don't see it, even in high profile cases like this, doesn't make it uncommon. Simply google and you'll find lots of examples counter to your claims.

If you want some academic studies, [1] shows that PE companies are better managed across developed and developing countries than non-PE, [2] shows that PE financed companies service debt at a lower cost to companies than non-PE firms (meaning that not taking PE, but using other sources, costs the company more), [3] shows that PE companies show more growth and employment than non-PE companies, and on and on. These are peer-reviewed journal articles that measure precisely what you likely have developed a feeling about from news and pop sources.

These articles are representative of a google scholar search on private equity research since 2015, and all appear on the first page. The rest of the page that addresses your claims reads similarly. Check it yourself.

[1] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.p20151000

[2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-financial...

[3] https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2015.240...

Re:Companies controlled by PE firms use bankruptcy to shed p... by Kalium on Monday December 31, 2018 @12:32PM (#18795661)
> It's usually part of a future worker's income. That is how they are underfunded. If the employee paid into a fund then these problems would happen less.

I was operating under the understanding that what you have so wisely suggested is exactly how pensions are generally structured, plus contributions from employers. Have I been misinformed?

I was also under the impression that these contributions are vulnerable to problems like assuming an incorrect long-term discount rate, life expectancy jumps, and more.