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Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by stcredzero on Friday December 21, 2018 @08:51PM (#18738370)
One of the deepest ironies of our current situation is that the modes of communication that enable today’s authoritarians were first dreamed up to defeat them

If you want to find corruption, then "Follow the money." If you want to find authoritarians, you can follow the flow of fundamental things in much the same way:

    - Who is doing the silencing?
    - Who is engaging in coercion?
    - Who wishes for the power to coerce?
    - Who is using violence?
    - Who is distorts the truth to push agendas?
    - Who eschews the universal for the momentarily convenient?
The answer nowadays is the same answer as in other times and places: angry, toxic parties who tend towards the far ends of the political spectrum, both left and right. It's the fringes that want discourse to end and take normal people for an excursion into chaos. It's the fringes that want to roll the dice for their chance at power.

The best thing to do is to let people have their voice. There's no authoritarian nonsense, no matter how virulent, which lasts forever and is immune to general good sense. It might take awhile, but people eventually come around.

A note of caution: there are a lot of villains who thought they were on the side of good, who turned out to be the opposite. When you've given up on convincing, and you're starting to shout, to hate, and to want to coerce people, you're probably on the wrong side of history.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fringegringe on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:43AM (#18740766)
Sometimes, it seems, the best outcome would be to let the fringes secede into their "dystopia" small states and allow them to re-create their hells on earth. The escapees could vaccinate society for another generation.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by stcredzero on Saturday December 22, 2018 @06:34PM (#18743133)
Sometimes, it seems, the best outcome would be to let the fringes secede into their "dystopia" small states and allow them to re-create their hells on earth. The escapees could vaccinate society for another generation.

There are those who say this is precisely what is happening with California.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by empath75 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @12:20AM (#18739068)
> There's no authoritarian nonsense, no matter how virulent, which lasts forever and is immune to general good sense.

Hitler was only in power for a decade or so and did a lot of damage to say the least.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by roenxi on Saturday December 22, 2018 @02:04AM (#18739383)
wades in When Hitler battled to power the Weimar Republic was experiencing hyperinflation and the economy had just shut down. I don't think Hitler's ideology was the biggest problem the Germans were facing. As the communist regimes like China and the Soviets demonstrated again after the war, a mismanaged economy is literally worse than Hitler for the people involved.

So I'll admit the situation is too complicated for me to really say this honestly, but the real issue the Germans faced was that they had lost WWI and a bunch of foreign powers were extracting large amounts of wealth from them. They eventually snapped and responded with violence. The fact that the focus when they snapped was Nazi ideology was unfortunate, but the problem wasn't the ideology - it was that foreigners were taking their wealth and the government failed to keep people fed, sheltered and employed.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by gpvos on Saturday December 22, 2018 @03:18AM (#18739601)
Something bad, probably a big war, was indeed inevitable, but if someone with less hatred of Jews had stood up, at least we'd have avoided a disastrous genocide.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fsloth on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:22AM (#18739786)
Um, public antisemitism was pretty common everywhere in the west pre WW 2. It became a socially unacceptable position in polite circles only after the Nazi genocide.

Racism was a mainstream position back then. For example, US black population got full rights only in the 60's.

The horror of nazis was not that they were some deranged mob of gangsters that only german subconscious could put up with. The horror of nazis was that they could have happened anywhere. They are a historys dark mirror showing to all societies a very bad example of what could be.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by gpvos on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:57AM (#18740823)
Oh, absolutely, I know antisemitism was very mainstream back then, and it could have happened elsewhere. But far from all leaders were willing to go as far as leading a nation into full-on genocide. The fact that it was someone like Hitler who rose up is a fluke of history, although one could argue that something like it would have happened sometime anyway, maybe a couple decades later; that's hard to speculate about.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fsloth on Saturday December 22, 2018 @11:12AM (#18741118)
Sadly lot of leaders have led their nation to genocide and suppresion of minority cultures. Hitler was not unique even in that aspect. US had a pretty genocidal tendency towards native americans, for example.

What was unique in Nazi germany was the industrialized efficiency with which the horror of genocide was implemented. IBM:s machines played a no small part in that.

The nation of Goethe and Beethoven plunged into a total inhuman batshit insanity. Another horrible aspect of this was the ease people could go on with it - "just doing my duty and following orders". Some people did the final horror of killing, but the precursor to that was the industrial labour and logistical planning of getting the people to the slaughterhouse. The system that funneled people to their doom was absolutely chilling in it's efficiency. And it could have happened everywhere as well.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by speedplane on Saturday December 22, 2018 @02:09AM (#18739398)
> the real issue the Germans faced was that they had lost WWI and a bunch of foreign powers were extracting large amounts of wealth ... the problem wasn't the ideology - it was that foreigners were taking their wealth and the government failed to keep people fed, sheltered and employed.

This is pretty blatant Nazi apologist rhetoric. Many groups have been wronged by foreign and domestic powers for decades, and they did not all respond with large-scale mechanized genocide. The buildup and virulent spread of focused hate in Nazi Germany was unique and can't be explained by a simple external geo-political power struggle.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by roenxi on Saturday December 22, 2018 @02:27AM (#18739462)
No, that was pretty blatant Keynesianism [0]. Although I suppose if it is possible to be a Nazi apologist in 1919 then maybe I can be one too.

I did admit it was complicated. But the state of the economy was clearly a contributer to the rise of the Nazi party. It isn't like Hitler got in because the Germans just went crazy one day and thought the dude was a great guy to lead. He got in because the country was collapsing anyway.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economic_Consequences_of_t...

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by speedplane on Saturday December 22, 2018 @02:34AM (#18739478)
The Roman empire collapsed, the Soviet union collapsed, numerous South American, Eastern European countries collapsed, the US economy crashed in the great depression. None of them resulted in anything remotely resembling Hitler's Germany. Hate is an emotion. It can be stoked by class resentment and injustice, but it's quite a different thing. Hitler harnessed hate like few societies have seen before or since.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by DuskStar on Saturday December 22, 2018 @03:14AM (#18739588)
Did any of those have some other country sitting just outside of their borders demanding that they hand over more wealth while they starved? Unlike most other countries in collapse, Germany had a nearby enemy that really was the active, willful cause of their suffering.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by leereeves on Saturday December 22, 2018 @01:35PM (#18741814)
Yes, Germans at that time had a very good reason to hate the French and English.

Which doesn't explain the Nazis' profound hatred of Jews, gays, and the disabled.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fringegringe on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:47AM (#18740782)
The roman empire collapsed "outwards" for centurys, hunting slaves, and rampaging through whole medieval countrysides, before collapsing inwards.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by agapon on Saturday December 22, 2018 @07:06PM (#18743341)
The Stalin's Soviet Union, after the collapse of Russian Empire, did resemble the Hitler's Germany (or vice versa) and not too remotely.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by agsdfgsd on Saturday December 22, 2018 @07:48AM (#18740349)
I love how in modern discourse, nazi apologists predate nazis.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by sayno3 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @01:19AM (#18739270)
Are there any groups pushing their agenda with strong information campaigns as opposed to resorting to coercion? Isn't a problem of everyone being able to vote a problem of people mostly being vulnerable to coercion as opposed to being open to quality information?
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by stcredzero on Saturday December 22, 2018 @06:35PM (#18743140)
Are there any groups pushing their agenda with strong information campaigns as opposed to resorting to coercion?

Yes. In addition to libertarians, there are also center-left classical liberals and scientists who are concerned about politically motivated science denial.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by buboard on Saturday December 22, 2018 @08:52AM (#18740555)
Yes. E.g. libertarians
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by KozmoNau7 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:00AM (#18739728)
Just a friendly reminder: no one on the left (the actual left, not the soft-right mainstream American left) wants authoritarianism.

That's a decidedly right-wing power fantasy.

The people on the left using violence are using it to fight the extreme right directly.

E: for clarity, I am speaking from a modern left-wing position, specifically the libertarian left, which is the strongest left-wing current today. Unfortunately the so-called "left"-wing in many Western countries has drifted to the right, which is absolutely deleterious.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fiblye on Saturday December 22, 2018 @07:28AM (#18740289)
You'll find an equal number of people on the right saying the same exact thing about the left.

There are extremists on both sides. Anyone living in a highly developed first world country using violence to "defend" their ideals is an extremist. They're only feeding extremism on the other side and it's why political divides keep growing deeper, despite the internet and social networks theoretically allowing more people of different beliefs to come together and discuss differences.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by KozmoNau7 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:15AM (#18740637)
The "both sides" claim is faulty, and lets fascists normalize their viewpoints. As we've seen countless times, the fascists want to "debate" people, because it gives them another platform and more exposure.

That's why "decorum" doesn't work. Fascism must be opposed at all turns, by all means. Otherwise they will succeed in moving the overton window even further to the right.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by jayko on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:29AM (#18740696)
Isn't it very convenient though when you brand anything to the right of Marx as 'Fascist' so that you can silence those viewpoints by any means necessary? Even using violence?
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by KozmoNau7 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @11:07AM (#18741095)
Nice strawman.

That's not what we're doing. We're not silencing anyone, only fighting back when they try to spread hatred and incite violence against minorities.

It is resistance, not aggression.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by jayko on Saturday December 22, 2018 @11:55AM (#18741310)
That's not true though. There have been countless of instances where perfectly reasonable positions have been branded by leftists as 'Fascist' in order to justify themselves in initiating aggression - unprovoked. Then they perform Olympic level metal gymnastics to justify themselves on how they are not at fault but the other side's fault for 'spreading hate'. People are starting to see through authoritarians like those and have increasingly stop falling for that bullshit.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by kingofhdds on Saturday December 22, 2018 @05:20AM (#18739968)
Authoritarian, or totalitarian tendencies are often naturally produced by absolute conviction in "us being good, them being evil". Even when one's ideology in theory insists on democracy, and compromise, it's very easy to tell "ok, we just need to save democracy/planet/nature/humanity by crushing the evil people, and then there will be bright future". This is compatible with practically any ideology, because it calls just for one exception, sort of war to end all wars. Besides, it's always possible to re-define the very meaning of democracy, and compromise to suit an urge to get rid of opponents.

Btw, your use of left-wing term is the classical No true Scotsman fallacy.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by PedroBatista on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:20AM (#18739778)
Did you just excused a whole political side by saying they only use violence to fight the bad guys?

The far right says the same.

This idea that the left are the good guys and care about the poor and vulnerable it’s their m.o. since the beginning but any serious book about the 20th century will obliterate that image.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by jayko on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:33AM (#18740711)
They care about the poor and vulnerable as long as they support their power grabs. Otherwise they send them to the Gulags or execute them - and the excuse is always the same "It's for your own good".
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by zozbot123 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @08:00AM (#18740396)
> specifically the libertarian left, which is the strongest left-wing current today

Not sure if serious... "Libertarian left" is not even close to being the strongest libertarian current today, so to suggest that it's "the strongest left-wing current" is beyond ludicrous. Don't get me wrong I even think left-libertarianism has a lot to go for from a purely intellectual POV, but that's some serious wishful thinking.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by rukuu001 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:38AM (#18739852)
Whoa my friend!

People from the left have practiced extreme authoritarianism in the past (Stalin, Mao, Khmer Rouge).

There's no reason to think they won't in the future.

The extreme left and right behave exactly the same way, while saying different things.

Analysing left v right is less useful than analysing authoritarian v non-authoritarian.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fsloth on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:19AM (#18739776)
Um, I'm pretty sure my coyntry has had it's share of socialists who were also stalinists.

Not sure of the context you meant, but in the general context left can be bullish on authoritarianism.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by fsloth on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:35AM (#18739842)
So I see downvotes. I think it's a pretty dangerous delusion to think that the side one politically sides with:

a) would not have authoritarians

b) hence could not implement authoritarian power structure if it became prominent

History has shown that authoritarianism can rise in what ever political ideology.

Pretending that ones political collaborators did not include at least some potential authoritarians (even if not vocal) is politically quite naive, despite what the common accepted mainstream position in ones party is.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by KozmoNau7 on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:48AM (#18739888)
Fair point, stalinists are authoritarian.

They're also a relatively tiny group of ridiculous LARPers that no one takes seriously.

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by someguydave on Saturday December 22, 2018 @10:09AM (#18740858)
Except for that time in Russia when they murdered millions of people because those people were trying to normalize fascist speech.
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by buboard on Saturday December 22, 2018 @08:55AM (#18740568)
authoritarians tend to speak in absolutes
Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by badpun on Saturday December 22, 2018 @04:13PM (#18742482)
> I am speaking from a modern left-wing position, specifically the libertarian left, which is the strongest left-wing current today.

The strongest left-wing group today is the Communist Party of China...

Re:The rise of the internet and a new age of authoritarianism by jayko on Saturday December 22, 2018 @09:36AM (#18740720)
That's not true. The strongest leftist movement in the Western world now is Progressivism, which is statist and not libertarian at all.

Let's not forget that the Progressives lauded Hitler and his eugenics program in the 30s shall we.