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Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by ggm on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @09:53PM (#18712631)
Back before we thought intelligent machines were going to be a thing, (we're talking 1970s here) I discussed online dating with my brother, who proposed writing a simple DB to match random men with random women. Neither of us had considered the possibility. I think we'd got to the idea that if they both liked tennis, it was plausible to rank them higher. He got pretty quickly to "its unethical, but simple"

Now we have AI and intelligent machines. I'm sure onine dating does a better job matching people up. (/s for anyone who is humour impaired)

Actually, what works, is putting sweaty tee shirts in a bag, and letting women sniff. Turns out that how you smell is a pretty good indication of how likely it is, you can form an effective match.

So on that score, the first online love broker who manages to capture digital nose moments, probably wins.

Right now, I'd welcome good stats on how much better online relationship brokering does than other models. If you rank by income, you probably get more successful matches for rich people seeking partners for high value service, but there might be surprises: It wouldn't surprise me if down in the dollar-shop window, people do well, but better than random?

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by julienmarie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @10:45PM (#18712849)
I made that mistake when launching my first dating website By trying to be more efficient. Unfortunately, this market is not about dating, it's a dopamine delivery market. You want to keep people long, increase your LTV, show them an ever better possible "match" so you never settle. You don't want them to actually meet someone. Hence the crappy chat features ( while the rest of the tech stack is usually pretty solid ).
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by ggm on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:01PM (#18712900)
Right. The apparent business model is "supply service to person x for service y" but the actual business model is "keep user online long enough to make them valuable eyeballs to sell to somebody else, be it another consumer of service, or an advertiser, or whatever"
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by mattbierner on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:50AM (#18714497)
Have any companies in the market been successful going the premium route? A service that costs a lot but is designed for the best user experience and outcomes? Maybe they interview potential members in person and work to ensure the “marketplace” has a good balance. Or maybe they take a more active role in the pairing. Starts sounding like a matchmaker.

For a dating service company not to be overly incentivized to keep users swiping forever, a membership model like with a country club could also work: a large upfront fee to join and then maybe a smaller reoccurring fee to maintain membership.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by IggleSniggle on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:20PM (#18717294)
There was a season of Startup where the startup attempted this approach. The company was (is?) called Dating Ring. https://www.gimletmedia.com/startup/origin-story-season-2-1-...
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by scythe on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:32PM (#18713027)
The only honest incentive is if you charge a high price for a successful relationship. The downside is you have to send people a bill when they get married.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by aesthesia on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:35PM (#18713033)
A college student in the 1960s with no computer experience or access started such a service: https://slate.com/technology/2014/03/before-okcupid-and-matc...
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by ggm on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:44PM (#18713074)
Hilarious!! Talk about "the road well travelled"

There is no good old idea, but that somebody else didn't think of it first. I bet somewhere out there is a statistician from the 1940s with a box of those cards with holes and notches you used as a DB "join" method over fields saying "...have I got a story for you..." (I used them in school btw. I had a real moment in DB class learning JOIN and thinking back to how we did selection over multiple criteria from these cards)

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by nradov on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:58PM (#18713133)
Body odor is probably mostly genetic. As human genome sequencing gets cheaper I expect someone will eventually start a dating service based on genetic matching. With a large enough training data set of successful long term relationships you could probably figure out combinations of genotypes that are likely to be compatible. (Or maybe it will end up being no more scientifically valid than horoscopes.)
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by thatfrenchguy on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:02AM (#18713157)
This is one of the creepiest things I’ve ever heard and this generalized would most likely lead to the extinction of our species (or at least reinforce really bad racist stereotypes).
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by fipple on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:38AM (#18713319)
On the contrary, body-odor based mating and other biological drivers of attraction is basically how >99% of mammalian couplings have been formed, with great success. It may be due to the link between immune system diversity and body odor based attraction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odour_and_sexual_attrac...
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by juhzy on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:22AM (#18714367)
Reality is racist. Racism is natural. We've had to force ourselves not to be racist for a reason.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by aluren on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:32AM (#18715158)
Racism as we know it has only been a thing since the days of slave trade and colonization, probably as a way to rationalize it. The early day and medieval empires (Roman, Mongol, Inca, etc.) were very much not racist given how they had to federate many different populations and coerce them into living together.

It doesn't mean there weren't any in-group dynamics or discrimination though. Race simply wasn't the focus. People would discriminate based on things like religion instead.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by jki275 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:38AM (#18715180)
What you are calling racism is just a form of tribalism, which is a normal human condition and has been since the beginning of known human existence.

Fortunately we don't have to stay at that level and can over come it to an extent, but claiming it wasn't a thing in medieval and other empires is factually incorrect.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by asianthrowaway on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:53AM (#18714769)
What do you mean by racism? Discriminating against people based on their race? I think the reason we've forced ourselves not to be racist is because it's morally wrong.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by nradov on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:07AM (#18713178)
Or maybe the opposite? Race as most people conceive of it today is primarily a social construct with only a slight genetic basis.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by samat on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @02:13AM (#18713775)
Most people in your room? In reality you know race by persons face. Is face a social construct?
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by Delfino on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:45AM (#18714474)
As some of "mixed race" these conversations always get weird. Defining a person's race seems mostly exclusionary in my experience. By that I mean, when I'm around a group of people who identify as one of my races, they think I look like a member of the other group (noticing the differences more prominently than the similarities) so either way I'm defined as an other. My family is pretty heterogenous and in a few generations I see it being hard to peg specific individuals as a particular race.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by jacobwilliamroy on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @03:40AM (#18714175)
As far as I can tell, race has no taxonomic significance when applied to modern humans, because all modern humans are the same species. The system for grouping people together by facial features seems to be a social construct most of the time. I can think of a partial exception to this rule: facial features which can be linked to diseases and injuries (for example, the tell-tale evidence of stroke make it possible to know stroke-victimness by face). I call that a partial exception, because there are groups of face-affecting conditions which look similar.

What do we mean when we talk about human races anyway? I've been thinking about this for a few minutes now and I am stumped.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by cies on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:11AM (#18714316)
I feel that the new "PC" word for race is ethnicity. As I understand it serves pretty much the same purpose.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by watwut on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:50AM (#18714750)
Ethnicity is defined primary through shared history and social grouping. Race is defined through genetics. They share some of the same, but are not the same.
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by cies on Thursday December 20, 2018 @02:58PM (#18728552)
> Ethnicity is defined primary through shared history and social grouping.

Agreed. But I feel ethnicity is "used" in a way like "race".

> Race is defined through genetics.

Sure? I thought genetically race had a very weak basis, and that it was basically some aspects of bodily looks and location of genetical/blood origination? The main reason we needed ethnicity as a term, because race was "simply not there in the genes" and thus "mostly about looks" which gave it very little use in proper science.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by watwut on Friday December 21, 2018 @06:34PM (#18737680)
I don't think I agree with second. Germans have clearly different culture, language, habits, preferences, values and humor then Czechs. Wo ha different all above from French.

A lot of it remains when group emirates but keeps being close knit.

That is ethicity.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by asianthrowaway on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:19AM (#18714353)
All dog breeds are part of the same species, and dog breeds are fundamentally a social construct. Does this mean that we need to stop categorizing dogs into breeds?

I find it hard to understand how some people still cling to 1960s "there is no such thing as race" arguments while in the real world you can send a swab of spit to 23andme or similar services and get a precise breakdown of your ethnic background down to the percentage.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by DanBC on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:03AM (#18715283)
> and get a precise breakdown of your ethnic background down to the percentage.

No, you can't. You can get bullshit geneology which you shouldn't take seriously.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21687013

> But in a public guide, published by Sense About Science, Prof David Balding and Prof Mark Thomas of University College London warn that such histories are either so general as to be "personally meaningless or they are just speculation from thin evidence".

> The scientists say that genetic profiles cannot provide accurate information about an individual's ancestry.

> They say "the genetic ancestry business uses a phenomenon well-known in other areas such as horoscopes, where general information is interpreted as being more personal than it really is".

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/nov/04/home-dna-kit-f...

>Ancestry’s DNA expert Mike Mulligan (93% Irish – everyone’s email at Ancestry gives their ethnicity breakdown) admits that the ethnicity percentage is a “top line” estimate derived from just a very small part of our DNA, a couple of letters long in the 3bn letters that make up our DNA, and that there are a lot of “inferences” made from the data. Precision is still a problem for DNA kits. Mulligan says that the Irish, Scots and Welsh are “almost indistinguishable from a DNA point of view”. Meanwhile, when it comes to western Europe “it is the most traipsed-about part of the planet The amount of DNA that has been blurred together is incredible”. Remarkably, DNA testers can’t really tell the difference between German and French DNA.

https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-herit...

> I suspected the error might lay not in my family narrative, but in the DNA test itself. So I decided to conduct an experiment. I mailed my own spit samples to AncestryDNA, as well as to 23andMe and National Geographic. For each test I got back, the story of my genetic heritage was different—in some cases, wildly so.

etc etc.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by aluren on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:17AM (#18715105)
"Race" is just how you look to other people and how that ties to your status. Its categorization is very much country dependent - Hispanic people are often not considered white in America, while no one would be making that distinction in Europe. On the contrary, Europeans often don't consider Arabs white, even though they often look white. The US and Europe have things like 'white', 'black', 'asian' but Latin Americans are much more nuanced. There are people that would be considered 'white' in Brazil and 'black' in the US. There are also things like passing [1] and so forth.

All I'm saying is, this has nothing to do with the results of a 23andme sequencing run, which would provide details about your ancestry. Race (in the US sense) correlates pretty weakly with ancestry, e.g. all the early humans for most of human history were black.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity)

[dead]
Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by dang on Friday December 21, 2018 @08:16PM (#18738225)
If you keep doing flamewars on HN, including race war, we're going to have to ban you. If that's what you want to do on the internet please find somewhere else to do it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by jacobwilliamroy on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:03AM (#18715285)
I agree in the real world, I can send a swab of spit to 23andme and get a guess as to where my ancestors were. I could also send a swab of spit to ancestry.com and get a completely different guess. These services are not precise, and even if they were, race and ancestry are not tightly coupled. Race is phenotypes, color of skin, shape of nose. Gene expression is a crapshoot, with the number of genotypes often dwarfing the number of phenotypes, racial features can skip generations or disappear entirely. My grandfather had white skin, a sharp nose, yet none of these features were passed on to me. Ancestry (genetics) and race (gene expression) are not tightly coupled.

I do think that ancestry can provide valuable insights into one's self, however I'm still not sold on the necessity or reality of race. Ancestry is not written on a person's face.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by krapp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:13AM (#18714848)
>Is face a social construct?

Skin color, facial structure and other commonly held visual traits of "race" don't map strongly to genetic identifiers that could form some scientifically valid definition of "race." Two black people living in the same area, sharing the same cultural and ethnic identity, can differ more genetically than either with a white immigrant.

In other words, that "black" is a race, and "white" is a race, etc, is entirely a social construct, which should be non-controversial given that these categories were created and solidified, culturally and politically, long before genetic science was even a thing.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by asianthrowaway on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:33AM (#18714944)
> Two black people living in the same area, sharing the same cultural and ethnic identity, can differ more genetically than either with a white immigrant.

I'm pretty sure that's false. What is true is that africans exhibit a great amount of genetic diversity, i.e. two africans will typically be more genetically different than two europeans. But the genetic distance between either of those two africans and either of those two europeans will still be even greater.

> In other words, that "black" is a race, and "white" is a race, etc, is entirely a social construct, which should be non-controversial given that these categories were created and solidified, culturally and politically, long before genetic science was even a thing.

It's a social construct to the same extent as colors are a social construct, which were formulated long before the theories of electromagnetism was even a thing.

A thing being a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't describe an underlying reality. That applies to any category invented by mankind. For instance, considering plants and animals, or even living beings and inanimate objects, as belonging to different categories is also a social construct. Because, after all, they're all just an association of atoms.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by krapp on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:42AM (#18714977)
>I'm pretty sure that's false. What is true is that africans exhibit a great amount of genetic diversity, i.e. two africans will typically be more genetically different than two europeans. But the genetic distance between either of those two africans and either of those two europeans will still be even greater.

I didn't say Africans and Europeans, I said black people and white people.

A black person from Africa and a black person from elsewhere are considered the same race because of their visual similarities, regardless of their background. That's the social construct.

>A thing being a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't describe an underlying reality

It can be inaccurate enough that it isn't useful, though.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by asianthrowaway on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:48AM (#18714994)
> I didn't say Africans and Europeans, I said black people and white people.

Same thing

> A black person from Africa and a black person from elsewhere are considered the same race because of their visual similarities, regardless of their background. That's the social construct.

And also perhaps because they actually are from the same race? Do you consider all the current inhabitants of the USA to be native americans?

> It can be inaccurate enough that it isn't useful, though.

That's true, but racial categories are really accurate, especially in this age of cheap DNA testing. As for usefulness, I'd say it's pretty useful in the medical field, for instance certain drugs work in some races but not in others due to racial differences in body chemistry.

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by aluren on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:26AM (#18715140)
All Africans are black and all Europeans are white? That's a new one.

As for medicine, while the efficacy of drugs can be ethnicity dependent, race is such a weak proxy for it that it often leads to mistakes when doctors operate by habit. Nothing trumps actual genetic screening (as opposed to "which Anglo-centric category do you fit best based on how you look").

Re:The Dating Brokers: An autopsy of online love by gammateam on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @12:14AM (#18713210)
Well you are right that some groups will get weeded out over time

Do you know how well dating services currently work for less desired groups? OKCupid has stats on their engineering blog and its not pretty