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Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by guelo on Thursday December 13, 2018 @02:23PM (#18675162)
As a longtime Windows 7 fan that refused to upgrade until I finally bought a new laptop with it I have been absolutely shocked by Windows 10's aggressive user-hostility.

The way they reset settings after forced upgrades should be criminal.

The way the user has no control over certain Microsoft processes unless they have been lucky enough to be allowed to pay for a Group Policy Editor license should also be criminal.

The ads, the nags, the surveillance.

It is not an operating system I can use anymore. They have lost me for life. I'll be switching to Mac and Linux from here on out.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by amatecha on Thursday December 13, 2018 @02:36PM (#18675273)
Yeah, I just helped someone set up a new Win 10 laptop and I felt so bad for them with how unintuitive and instrusive of a process it was. It pushes you towards making/using an online Microsoft account, and making a non-internet account on the computer is a tiny text button (no outline, just text) which NO computer novice is going to know. Can only guess how many users have their online identity now permanently linked with their home computer usage because they thought they have to. Just seems so predatory and manipulative.

I mean, at the bare minimum, software companies (especially the most prominent and prevalent ones) should be adopting the "principle of least astonishment"[0] and not enabling sketchy crap by default. Also simply starting up a new computer and getting going shouldn't require paging through 5+ pages of inexplicable configuration steps that cannot possibly be effectively summarized by a one-line 12pt-font description.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by exodust on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:45PM (#18677197)
I'm about to set up a new PC for a relative with Win 10 Home, parts have just arrived. Any advice on set up procedures or things I can do to keep Microsoft from spying on them and collecting their data?

Or is it just not possible any more? Surely I can install the OS without creating a MS account? My intention is to disable all the nags, bloat and advertising bullying, leaving only an essential OS that doesn't bully my non-technical relatives.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by lurker_primo on Thursday December 13, 2018 @10:52PM (#18678336)
You can have an offline account which is not connected to a microsoft account in any way. They try to force you to connect a microsoft account. There are scripts that disable all telemetry - reddit.com/r/tronscript is a good resource. The issue is that we don't know when Microsoft turns it back on.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by exodust on Thursday December 13, 2018 @11:09PM (#18678417)
Okay thanks. The PC I'm assembling is for an 80yo guy who doesn't trust the internet, and would be horrified to learn how much Microsoft wants to track his usage.

I won't be telling him about that. He deletes emails and even text messages as soon as he's read them, for fear of them causing problems. The last thing he wants is Windows popping up some message, contextually trying to be smart and know what he's doing without him inviting that bot into his world.

Microsoft (and other giants) simply don't get it.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by zozbot123 on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:38AM (#18678903)
> The PC I'm assembling is for an 80yo guy who doesn't trust the internet

Why are you setting this guy up with Windows 10 then, instead of a system that actually respects the user and has decent security, like Debian GNU/Linux? (There is an enduring notion that Debian systems are hard to install or administer for the casual user, but one might argue that it is 5 years out of date - maybe even 10 years out of date.) Does he rely on some Windows-only hardware or software of some sort - and if so, could he run that on a dedicated, airgapped system?

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Casseres on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:18PM (#18682514)
Does he need any Windows-only software? If not, set him up with Linux. He's less susceptable to clicking on the wrong thing and getting malware as well.

There are some very user-friendly GUIs out there that are easy to install.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Friday December 14, 2018 @07:08AM (#18680252)
I’ve been running my Windows 10 desktop this way for a while.

Prepare for a lot of nags about logging in to a Microsoft account.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by amatecha on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:43PM (#18685095)
Yeah as someone else said, basically just create an offline account (there will be an option at the lower left of the screen when it's asking you to enter your Microsoft account address, IIRC). Then throughout the process basically just uncheck all the options for various metrics reporting. I believe there are some open source scripts to disable even more stuff, but I haven't tried that myself.

Oh also, I seem to recall I had to disable/hide Cortana _after_ the setup, as there was nothing in the initial computer setup that allowed me to turn it off (again, IIRC).

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by 131012 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @02:56PM (#18675456)
What enrages me most is the fact that they ask us to f* pay for it!

The implicit deal with Facebook, Google and other free services is that you pay them with their data. Fine.

But paying for being spied on? This is scam pure and simple.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by linuxftw on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:54PM (#18675999)
There's a (more than one, really) wonderful free operating system alternative that you can install on almost any PC. At the very least, you can dual boot.

Critical mass starts with you.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by wink on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:10PM (#18676997)
Please don't act as if Linux was a viable alternative for everything. It's not. I appreciate trying to prod people, but this came off very elitist.

-- someone who's been using Linux since 1998, Linux desktops for work stuff since ~2008 and has more machines with only Linux at home than ones with Windows, but still spends the majority of recreation time on a Win7 box because not all games run nicely with Wine, or at all.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by linuxftw on Friday December 14, 2018 @07:56AM (#18680469)
I don't play video games on PC, and neither do most 'normal' users. Most people use PC for browsing the web, writing email, and creating documents. Many people do play games on PC, but not most.

Vote with your dollars. What do you care about most? PC Video games, or having an operating system that respects your freedom and privacy? Critical mass starts with you too, if you want PC Video games that run on free operating systems, us those systems and the vendors will follow.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Nerdfest on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:56PM (#18684062)
While not a 'normal' user as such, I've used only Linux at home and at work (Win VM at work occasionally for rare corporate stuff). I develop software, control my guitar amp and audio equipment, play video games, do photo processing, watch videos ....

No, it's not a viable alternative for everything, it's damn close. Valve is doing some incorporation of Wine into Steam that should make many "Windows-only" games play effortlessly.

Don't use Linux if you don't want to obviously, but complaining because you can't play all games written for a completely different OS is a valid complaint. If you know people that are concerned about surveillance and privacy, don't scare them away. At least tell people about multi-boot.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by VRay on Friday December 14, 2018 @05:16PM (#18685374)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that anyone surfing HackerNews for fun can easily get their favorite games working in wine, so I'm not sure who that guy is warning off
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by wink on Monday December 17, 2018 @06:00PM (#18703059)
Games that kinda need to run at 30-60 fps. Games that came out recently.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by flukus on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:03PM (#18677301)
> Please don't act as if Linux was a viable alternative for everything. It's not.

Please get over the idea that linux will ever be a 100% perfect drop-in replacement for windows. If you can't accept that their will be some pain involved and things they have to give up then you should expect to be stuck in this abusive relationship forever.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by zapzupnz on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:32PM (#18677418)
> Please get over the idea that linux will ever be a 100% perfect drop-in replacement for windows

Are you saying that generally or to the person to whom you responded, because it looks like you're both saying the same thing with the current wording and I find it a tad confusing.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by flukus on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:51PM (#18677521)
We both recognize the difficulty but OP doesn't seem willing to accept the self sacrifice necessary to get to the end goal, which is what I was attempting to emphasize.

As long as MS know that people aren't willing to make sacrifices (and we're using the term loosely) like that they will have no reason to change and the cycle will continue.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by dman on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:38PM (#18677454)
I would like to live in a world where the parents comment could be interpreted as talking about openbsd / freebsd etc. (Parents username notwithstanding).
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by 131012 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:21PM (#18677064)
It came off very elitist to assume I am running on Windows too. My comment was written from Ubuntu, yet I had to buy a Win10 license last time I bought a laptop.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by monetus on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:10PM (#18676151)
How do you feel about critical mass for average users though? Debian updating its repositories every two years is kind of antithetical to the android and mac idea of software repositories. I've not tried elementaryOS, but I thought it was similar.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by zozbot123 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:41PM (#18676388)
Debian updates its stable release repositories every two years (aside from pure bugfixes and the like, of course) because this is what it takes to have a rock-solid software release-- with a truly negligible amount of issues for the computer-naïve "average user" to be bitten by-- given the resources they have at present and the overall state of upstream software. If people want more frequent updates, coupled with the same overall reliability that Debian has always been known for (far more than many other Linux distributions), they're welcome to contribute.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by linuxftw on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:20PM (#18676237)
Plenty of software vendors provide packages that are compatible across releases such as google chrome and mariadb. Checkout Mariadb's releases for Ubuntu: http://mirrors.syringanetworks.net/mariadb//mariadb-10.3.11/...

Just the system packages need to be stable (eg, distro's repos).

Also worth mentioning is snaps and flatpacks (though I'm not personally a fan, they do exist).

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by flukus on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:35PM (#18677435)
Average users hate updates, that's a major reason MS (and others like chrome) have to be so aggressive about forcing them, it's why so many stick with XP and 7. They hate security updates because they're an annoyance that does things they don't understand and they hate app updates that change the UI under their nose.

If you gave them a system and promised nothing major would change for 5 years they'd be thankful.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Nerdfest on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:59PM (#18684094)
You can run fully transparent updates in Linux using tools from Canonical, Oracle, etc. I have absolutely no idea how people put up with how badly Windows does updates, and really, XBox is not far behind.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by saghm on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:41PM (#18676389)
There are distros not based on Debian out there, many of which update their packages more often than every two years
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by pippy on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:31PM (#18676338)
Products that serve ads and sell your user data should be free, see Facebook or Google Search.

If I fork out money for a product, I expect to do what is says it does. To have Windows auto update and serve ads in the start bar or lock screen is just too much

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by blitmap on Thursday December 13, 2018 @02:47PM (#18675372)
The only user-hostile behavior I mostly agree with his forced, frequent updates.

It would be better if:

1) Microsoft didn't beta-test with actual customers.

2) Microsoft figured out how to update things without restarting so commonly (as I understand, this is due to how files are locked and how dependent services are updated).

3) Microsoft didn't push out unnecessary crap as "critical" or essential/important updates.

4) Microsoft didn't force updates on shutdown.

I mean Apple has made their phones the preferred secure devices of several organizations because of how well they keep them updated. It's a pain for me in IT when an app wants to require a recently-released version of iOS, but I do see the benefit to forced, frequent updates.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by jstimpfle on Thursday December 13, 2018 @02:54PM (#18675439)
My Win10 PC sometimes wakes up in the night to complete an update and reboot. My working sessions are lost as a consequence. And since my PC reboots to Linux it stays up until I wake up due to the humming. Quite annoying.

This morning I researched a way to turn off these forced updates but Win10 wouldn't let me apply the option without entering some obscure credentials that I don't know.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by shawnz on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:04PM (#18675524)
But wouldn't it be better if your apps supported hot exit, so you could wake up the next morning with updates already installed AND all your work still there?
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by jstimpfle on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:12PM (#18676161)
Well, they don't. And more generally, restoring the original session state, whether after a "hot exit" or not, is not really possible. Processes are bound to a running OS. Shutting down causes closed file descriptors, broken TCP connections, and what not. No matter how much effort you are willing to put into restoring a session, it will be unreliable at best.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Derek_MK on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:30PM (#18676331)
The solution shouldn't be "make all the apps work around Microsoft being anti-consumer". It should be "Make Microsoft stop being anti-consumer".
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by shawnz on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:37PM (#18676363)
It's a standard expectation on mobile that all apps should work that way, and consumers seem to like that pattern better. So is it really anti-consumer to try and push app developers in that direction?
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by jstimpfle on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:49PM (#18676442)
Dude, this is not mobile. I'm using my Desktop PC for real work. Desktop applications are more complex and have more complex interaction patterns than mobile apps. I might be able to restore my session manually (lose an undo buffer here or a private browsing session there) but its still an annoyance.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by grawprog on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:41PM (#18676810)
My KDE desktop will restore about 95% of my previous session in its previous state on restart even after a crash or power loss. It doesn't restore private browser sessions or running games in their current state or anything like that. But it restores most of my desktop software to exactly what i had open with undo buffers, terminal states and just about everything exactly the way it was.

I'm not trying to excuse microsoft....if anything there's really no excuse for them not to have a proper session restore and non-forced updates that don't auto-restart your computer.

Just pointing out they really dropped the ball twice here.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Nerdfest on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:02PM (#18684120)
KDE these days has pretty much earned my forgiveness for the last couple of bid re-dos. It's a really fantastic DE again.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by dragonwriter on Thursday December 13, 2018 @04:58PM (#18676516)
There's no reason desktop apps can't by default use near-continuous saved state and assure completely persisted state on shutdown request.

They usually don't, because of historical UI paradigms, but there is no reason they can't. It's universal on mobile because mobile rebuilt UI paradigms from the ground up, discarding desktop legacy nonsense in the process.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by jstimpfle on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:03PM (#18676546)
Mobile apps don't restore very well either, but it doesn't matter so much. There is usually not much to restore because they have less state.

Let's say I have a private browsing session. Or a password manager session where I've been manipulating an unlocked database. I might have manually mounted a file system over the network and might have a bunch of programs running, editing the files over there.

You cannot restore these things automatically after a shutdown. It's annoying each time, and sometimes you are simply going to lose data.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by kilburn on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:03PM (#18676955)
You are presenting situations that are hard but not impossible to deal with.

If you can keep the stuff in RAM, you can also serialize it to disk and then restore it from there. The only thing you cannot do is reply to external inputs during that time (so keepalive connections may be a problem if your updates take too long), but that can also be dealt with.

We are very far from getting there though.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by rcxdude on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:22PM (#18675701)
It would be better if updating didn't require a restart.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by jake_the_third on Thursday December 13, 2018 @08:36PM (#18677709)
> The only user-hostile behavior I mostly agree with his forced, frequent updates.

.. by default.

An owner should always have the final say in what his machine does. If they choose to disable automatic updates, then that's their prerogative and they bear the consequences.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Taylor_OD on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:18PM (#18675653)
I've noticed my computer now restarts, reopens all the applications I had running, and sometimes even has them all in the same positions I left them in. If I didnt get signed out of Steam and my VPN wasnt open I wouldnt even notice half the time.

I want to be able to decide if my computer updates... It's not even that big of an ask.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Crosseye_Jack on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:01AM (#18679949)
> I want to be able to decide if my computer updates... It's not even that big of an ask.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...

As for the opening of you windows after a restart/shutdown that too is a Registry or Group Policy change you can make to adjust its behaviour (They may have promoted the setting to somewhere in the settings app since I changed the behaviour myself)

Basically if you don't want it to reopen your applications / windows when you next log in you make a small change to the shutdown command that executed when you shutdown in your preferred method (If you shutdown / restart with a certain flag windows won't do this).

EDIT: A quick google tells me they have indeed promoted such behaviour to the Settings App.

To change this setting, head to Settings > Accounts > Sign-in Options. Scroll down to the Privacy section and set the “Use my sign-in info to automatically finish setting up my device and reopen my apps after an update or restart” option to “Off.”

AND

launch File Explorer, click the “View” tab on the Ribbon and click the “Options” button. On the View tab, scroll down and locate the “Restore previous folder windows at logon” option. Ensure it’s unchecked or Windows will reopen any folder windows when you sign into your PC.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by kowdermeister on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:22PM (#18675698)
> reopens all the applications I had running, and sometimes even has them all in the same positions I left them in

That's a really great feature. I'd love to see even better window management in 10.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by saltyshake on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:30PM (#18675775)
Its super annoying with YouTube.

Even a full Shutdown/Restart, I open the machine and boom, Chrome opens and the speakers are blasting whatever I had playing on YouTube the day before.

Shutdowns should be respected. What if I had something inappropriate open before doing the shutdown ?

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by alex__c on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:24AM (#18679562)
I actually had it happen on me.. visited certain websites, pressed "Restart" in Windows and left the room, computer came back on with Chrome displaying my last session in its full glory. Thankfully no one else was home.

Apparently Microsoft is doubling down on "we will make things CONVENIENT and you WILL like it!".

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by gknoy on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:36PM (#18675821)
Incognito mode should prevent one aspect of that - Chrome won't remember what it had open as soon as the tab is closed (useful for bank account info, etc).
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by totony on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:03PM (#18676543)
Except this is Windows re-opening the apps (probably from hibernated RAM), so incognito would likely not work
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by lostmsu on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:16PM (#18677028)
I don't think it's possible. Must be the apps themselves.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by kowdermeister on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:44PM (#18675898)
Then you know that and quit Chrome first. I made similar mistakes by simply closing the lid and going to work, but it's always my fault and not the OS's.

I won't restart my chrome now, but i'm pretty sure a YouTube tab will only keep playing if it's in focus.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by icebraining on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:49AM (#18679203)
Closing the lid is not a full restart, that's the point.
Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Crosseye_Jack on Friday December 14, 2018 @06:14AM (#18680010)
> The way the user has no control over certain Microsoft processes unless they have been lucky enough to be allowed to pay for a Group Policy Editor license should also be criminal.

regedit.exe All the tweaks I make to friend's & family's machines can be done in either the registry or in GPE, Its just GPE is a bit more user friendly than regedit but when I've come across a home licensed machine I can still make all the needed tweaks in the registry.

> The way they reset settings after forced upgrades should be criminal.

They have stopped the resetting of privacy settings after updates. I only notice major resets with large insider build updates (But those updates are more "refresh installs" then "Update installs" so I will let them off on that one) apart from one thing...

Audio. Seems like they are transitioning audio config from control panel to Settings and every now and then they reset my preferred audio settings But I do have a pretty weird audio set up.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by Digital-Citizen on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:27PM (#18677394)
> They [Microsoft] have lost me for life. I'll be switching to Mac and Linux from here on out.

The power you rightly object to is not limited to Microsoft, or the Windows OS. That power comes from the power of proprietary software over the user. All proprietors possess that power and leverage that power largely in ways we can't describe in detail until it is too late to stop it from being used against users. But we know that all proprietary software is untrustworthy precisely because it doesn't respect a user's software freedom.

Microsoft got caught leveraging that power against their users before, this isn't new. But given how long it took us to learn about some of their abuses, it's a safe bet that there are other ways they have of using the Windows OS to report on the user without their consent and do anything else the endpoint is capable of doing. After all, Microsoft has a universal back door on every version of Windows. Since a lot of those endpoints are connected to the Internet, it is not hard to get those endpoints to do whatever Microsoft wants them to do.

https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html has a list of Microsoft's back doors, insecurities, DRM, instances of surveilling users, and more.

Switching to Apple won't address the underlying problem -- a lack of software freedom. There's plenty we know about Apple's proprietary malware too listed at https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.html. But picking one proprietor over another isn't gaining freedom, it's switching masters.

Consider a free software GNU/Linux distribution (some are listed at https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html) and run it on hardware you get to control (https://www.fsf.org/ryf has pointers to such hardware), and then install nothing but free software on top of that. That will go quite a ways to keeping you in control to the degree you're willing to look into things or have others do this work for you. I find it's a big job I can't do all myself, so I have to trust others in this. There's no known guarantee against malware. But a free system is the best practical means to avoid malware, and computer security is impossible without free software. The structure of proprietary software immediately tells me that we simply can't do away with the malware you mention if we run proprietary software. You'll also need to have a stiffened spine against those who try to frame the issue around convenience -- run the software on this website, install and run this program, etc. -- because there are a lot of ways to run proprietary software on your computer these days (installed or not). Liberating yourself from forced upgrades, ignored/reset settings, advertising, nagging, surveillance, DRM, and more is all possible. But not with proprietary software.

Re:Is Windows 10 still telling what you're doing even if you... by zozbot123 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @03:13PM (#18675609)
Many free-software and open-source advocates would of course not be shocked at this. They would tell you that this is why it is a grievous mistake to rely on proprietary software for your baseline computing needs. And of course Microsoft LOVES open source these days, so it has selflessly embarked on a mission to prove them right.