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Re:Firefox 64 Released by Doctor_Fegg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:57PM (#18657777)
> The CSS Scrollbars Level 1 spec standardizes features for setting scrollbar width and color

I would like these features to be standardised to hands-off-my-fricking-scrollbars.

I’m fed up with impossible-to-grab 1px-wide scrollbars because “everyone has trackpads”. No, they don’t.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by dictum on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:01PM (#18658370)
Time for FF's balance of configurability and reasonable defaults to shine: the about:config properties to edit are `layout.css.scrollbar-color.enabled` and `layout.css.scrollbar-width.enabled`.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by mintplant on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:03PM (#18658855)
If you prefer config files to ad-hoc configuration in the GUI, you can set up a user.js file [0] with your preferred about:config tweaks.

[0] http://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file

Re:Firefox 64 Released by AnaniasAnanas on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:10PM (#18658921)
I am pretty sure that changing it would be a bad idea if you care about your privacy.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by RussianCow on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:20PM (#18659536)
Why? Is there even a way to test whether this is enabled?
Re:Firefox 64 Released by QasimK on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:45PM (#18659701)
Yes, scroll bars are already used to identify which operating system you are using as their width varies between systems.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by baroffoos on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @12:02AM (#18661524)
Your user agent already does this.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by AnaniasAnanas on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @12:03AM (#18661530)
Which is why many privacy-minded people change their user agent to match the most popular one, especially the OS part.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by function_seven on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @10:43PM (#18661215)
I imagine you could set up a scrollable div on a page, with elements within and query the position of those elements or their width. Having a custom scroll bar would flow the contained elements in different ways depending on how wide it is.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by XCSme on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:11PM (#18658448)
I am working on a HTML5 game which has a list of rooms, list which has a scrollbar. It looks as ugly as it can be with the default scrollbar when everything else is neatly designed and has a specific theme, it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game. I am not saying that all the sites should have custom scrollbars, but there are definitely use cases for it.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:21PM (#18659012)
> it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game.

If you're uncomfortable with the user realizing the game is a browser game, why did you make it in a browser?

Re:Firefox 64 Released by preommr on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:36PM (#18659646)
Implying there's some intrinsic reason browsers can't have customizeable scrollbars.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by lugg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:05PM (#18659836)
It's called usability through famiarity.

Customising UI elements is a usability antipattern.

Per [1], predictability and familiarity are key in creating usable interfaces. Making things look nice "because you can" doesn't necessarily mean you should.

> When designing your interface, try to be consistent and predictable in your choice of interface elements. Whether they are aware of it or not, users have become familiar with elements acting in a certain way, so choosing to adopt those elements when appropriate will help with task completion, efficiency, and satisfaction.

[1] https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/user-inte...

Re:Firefox 64 Released by baroffoos on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:22PM (#18660595)
Have you ever seen a game built entirely out of default OS windows and buttons? If you are building an accounting program, sure use all the defaults but if you are building a piece of art I think you can afford to change a scrollbar.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by mrob on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:47PM (#18660700)
>Have you ever seen a game built entirely out of default OS windows and buttons?

I remember having a lot of fun playing Stars! as a child: https://www.mobygames.com/game/stars

Re:Firefox 64 Released by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @10:58PM (#18661282)
It was really common in Win3 and early MacOS. Those were good times.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by lugg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:16PM (#18661352)
Responded above.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by lightedman on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:43PM (#18660680)
"Have you ever seen a game built entirely out of default OS windows and buttons?"

Castle of the Winds, Windows 3.11.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by dc_gregory on Thursday December 13, 2018 @10:46PM (#18678308)
FYI, you are probably hell-banned.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by skeoh on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:02PM (#18660179)
Just curious: does this principal apply only to scrollbars or should sites not be able to change the appearance of other controls -- like buttons, for example?
Re:Firefox 64 Released by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @10:57PM (#18661281)
Can't speak for the other poster, but if sites want to be applications then they should use native application controls.

Sadly the world has gone the other way and basically ditched the whole concept of native widgets and consistent look and feel.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by lugg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:14PM (#18661345)
I'll reply here to both you and baroffoos, it's basically the same question.

> Does this principal apply to X for y?

In a vacuum, yes it's a principal.

In reality, while it's an antipattern it doesn't mean you should be afraid let alone disallowed the ability to exercise good judgement and make a call.

Full window, emersive games are the perfect example of UI elements like buttons that should probably be reskinned - wisely. I say wisely because you can still reskin buttons in a way that affords familiarity you can also reskin them in a way that makes them abhorrent.

A converse example is windows based skinnable hardware interface software like MSI afterburner and the like. That sort of thing is absolute unthought, untested garbage.

For website buttons I think the ship has sailed and the default elements actually look alien.

In fact a lot of CSS frameworks improve net usability from defaults anyway.

Now, is it an antipattern to use them? In essence yes, but considering everything no. Caution, many css frameworks have UX issues and you need to make a judgement in your evaluation about which features to use. I like to see how their autocomplete / dropdown features work it's usually a good litmus test because those things are basically impossible to do right.

And this why we have UX people.

It is the marriage and trade off of usability/hci and designers to create a usability experience that delights.

Though things still tend to lean toward design first approaches. Which aren't incorrect approaches but do tend to lack emphasis on circling back to fix usability later.

I think website internals are widely debatable but do have norms you must consider.

I draw the line at breaking out of the window sandbox and altering browser UI. It assumes all browsers work the same and creates a dependency on the browser for a shared experience.

An inconsequential example: setting browser ui color on mobile version of Chrome. Now your whole website design feels very native and is reasoned about with that native feel. That can them lead to inconsistent design assumptions being made on the desktop. Maybe your color selection clashes badly with the desktop grey.

Like I said, inconsequential, but might illustrate why messing with it might be a bad idea.

The other big reason I throw down at the browser window line is accessibility. Messing with things like button sizing / scrollbar sizing and things wrecks absolute havoc on these users. They also make English centric assumptions about designs that are almost always wrong eventually.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by sgentle on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:09PM (#18661325)
That page has a custom scrollbar.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by lugg on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:18PM (#18661363)
I don't think that discredits my point or it's information. If anything it points out how much of a problem this stuff is and how uninformed (or at least disconnected) developers and designers are.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by NathanCH on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:52PM (#18659284)
There are plenty of UI which allows users to scroll but does not feature a scroll bar. This is standard on mobile operating systems.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by zeotroph on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:04PM (#18658394)
> Scrollbar

One thing I like about the Firefox (Gtk?) scrollbar is that it finally removed (a few version ago already) the "Click on it somewhere, but it doesn't move there but just acts like PgDown/Up", i.e. the non-warping to the exact click position but just inching towards it. This is completely unnecessary in the time of wheels and touchpads and I already miss it everywhere else.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by kettlecorn on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:12PM (#18660819)
On Windows another lovely scrollbar "feature" is that if you move the mouse too far left while dragging the scrollbar the scrollbar will jump back to where it started.

A handful of people love it, most think it's a bug. It's particularly bad if you're using a trackpad.

I would theorize that it's not a well known complaint because most people move on quickly and just assume their computer is buggy.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by bbx on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:36PM (#18658618)
Yeah I prefer that behaviour too. Luckily on MacOS, this is a global setting: https://www.lifewire.com/change-how-macs-scroll-bars-work-22...
Re:Firefox 64 Released by acqq on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:11PM (#18658449)
> This is completely unnecessary

It is completely necessary for me to have “move one page up on click.”

Re:Firefox 64 Released by zeotroph on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:02PM (#18658848)
But, that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no? When you are navigating in these discrete steps why use the mouse, which is excellent for continuous input. If I click on something, I want to go THERE, not in the direction of it. "But we have always done it in this (imo illogical) way" is just being stubborn.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by acqq on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:29PM (#18659591)
> that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no?

Definitely no: If I have a hand on the mouse I surely don't want to lift it and hunt for the PgUp or PgDown just to move one page up or down. And no, I don't want to go "there" if it's actually "somewhere" in the middle of whatever, if I just want to see the previous or the next page. Going "there" is much less frequent operation than moving to the next or the previous page.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by zeotroph on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:55PM (#18660455)
So, that means a PgDown button (I guess it is mostly that direction) on the mouse is missing. The thumb button which most mice have and are mapped to forward/backwards could be remapped to that. Or a mouse gesture? FoxyGestures, a Firefox addon, has a "Scroll Down" action.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by acqq on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:03AM (#18662180)
> The thumb button which most mice have

"Most"? Where did you get that idea? "Most gaming mice" or what? Most of the users aren't gamers.

> that means a PgDown button (I guess it is mostly that direction) on the mouse is missing.

Of course is missing: "normal" (as in the most common) mice have only 2 buttons and the scroll wheel.

The scroll wheel never moves one page up (or down), but just some small number of lines, so the most common operation is then impossible for the most of the users just because a developer (who probably even "lives" in his terminal for most of the time, never lifting the both hands from the middle of the keyboard) thinks that everybody has exactly the gear that he has.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by mixmastamyk on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:28PM (#18668282)
No, no changes were necessary and another thing that has to be fixed on a new install. For decades it has been:

- left click - page up/down

- middle click - go directly to this point.

Moving one of these to the other is confusing and a loss of useful functionality. Reminds me of "chesterton's fence."

Re:Firefox 64 Released by iSnow on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @09:24AM (#18664093)
A lot (most?) Laptop keyboards don't have pgup/pgdown or it is hidden behind some shift-ctrl-fumbling.

For most longer texts, I hate "click to here" on the scrollbars. It's impossible to get it right. Them working as pgup/down makes much more sense.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by acdha on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @09:24AM (#18664094)
If you have a keyboard which has those and it doesn’t require moving your hand off of the mouse to hit them, it might be easier. Many smaller keyboards (e.g. most laptops or Apple’s non-pro keyboards) either omit them entirely or require a modifier key.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by ukyrgf on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:01PM (#18659805)
It's not stubborn to design your application to work as users have come to expect.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by axiometry on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:49PM (#18661480)
Do you think that the majority of users feel the same way? I don't.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by chrisseaton on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:08PM (#18657884)
> because “everyone has trackpads”. No, they don’t.

Don't most mice have scrolling as well? It's not about trackpads.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by 51lver on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:18PM (#18657954)
I have a trackpoint with no 3rd button. Many trackballs don't have scroll wheels. Many folks use arrow keys and space, shiftspace, pgup/down to navigate too and those require nice visible scroll bars that move the whole document to navigate effectively.

Long story short, stop fscking with accessibility. If your js code or libraries handles ANY input events, you'd better watch yourself because you're venturing into specialized-interface-by-and-for-assholes-land.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by bowersbros on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:23PM (#18658005)
Things like large documents don't make that any easier though. Scrolling through a large document can take a while, but a scrollbar allows you to get to somewhere else often quite a lot faster.

Imagine you cmd + F a phrase and there are 200 responses separated into like 4 chunks of a document. It can be useful to scroll to the start of each chunk to get the context of them.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by bm98 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:34PM (#18658116)
Most new mice, yes. I use an original Logitech MouseMan 3-button mouse with no scroll-wheel. I realize I'm an outlier, but no mouse has ever come close in terms of comfort for me - so I continue to use it, and life has been just fine until the advent of the Overlay Scroll Bar.

I realize the benefits of the Overlay Scroll Bar to the majority of users who have scroll-wheels. But it sure would be nice if there was an easy way to revert back to the Normal Scroll Bar ("Classic" scroll bar?). You know, the wide bar that scrolls down exactly one page-length if you click outside of the bar? I've spent plenty of time Googling and in "about:config" and exporting environment variables like GTK_OVERLAY_SCROLLING=0 to no avail.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by danillonunes on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:01PM (#18658371)
Maybe with that change you can have it now by using a userscript that override scroll bar CSS for every site.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by ken on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:56PM (#18658769)
This assumption should be listed in the Firefox "System Requirements", then. I'm pretty sure nowhere else on my system (Mac) requires the mouse to have a wheel or tracking surface, or even a second button. Just x/y positioning, and clicking.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by JohnFen on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:17PM (#18657945)
They do, but they don't eliminate the need for scrollbars that can actually be used.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by lawn on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:56PM (#18658310)
> most

But not all.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by mindcrime on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:59PM (#18657803)
Agreed. There's really little or no good reason for a website to be able to change the scrollbars at all.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by Zekio on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:01PM (#18657825)
on Windows you will always have a white scrollbar even with dark theme enabled in Windows and firefox, and if you are then on a dark website the scrollbar is basically a beacon of light
Re:Firefox 64 Released by zapzupnz on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:03PM (#18657850)
Given that WebKit recently added "Dark Mode" support, it would likely be sufficient for Firefox to do the same and simply recolour the scrollbar itself, rather than trusting CSS artists to do it sanely and properly.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by bastawhiz on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:27PM (#18660616)
You're assuming the only scrollbar is on the far right-hand side of the screen. There are plenty of inline scroll bars and scrollbars in parts of the UI that are not adjacent to "native" chrome. Always using the OS default does not make for a good experience.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by zapzupnz on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:36PM (#18660649)
I don’t see in anything I wrote any implication that I assumed anything about what scroll bars needed or would be themed.

A browser-wide scrollbar styling system, able to be opted into by use of particular CSS, doesn’t imply anything about whether we are talking about just one scroll bar or all of them.

I also disagree about native controls not always being the best solution when it comes to scrolling. We all know how annoying it is when a page jacks scrolling; it’s a usability nightmare that makes pages’ scroll behaviour harder to predict. We don’t need to add to the usability issues by letting one of the most fundamental pieces of chrome in a web browser get jacked even further than the already impermissible state.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by bastawhiz on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @04:32PM (#18667942)
Changing the appearance and the behavior of scrollbars (or replacing them entirely as you mention) are very different concerns.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by zapzupnz on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @08:01PM (#18669060)
Not really, it's the same concern; the potential for gratuitous, superfluous, or regressive modification of a stable and predictable user interface element that is representative of the most fundamental of actions when it comes to long-form document-based design: scrolling.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by Zekio on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:00PM (#18657813)
you can disable it in about:config by searching scrollbar if that has your fancy :)
Re:Firefox 64 Released by cerved on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:08AM (#18661940)
Every other browser allows styling scrollbars using CSS. Firefox was the only one that didn't and there's a 15 year old open bug on bugzilla about it.

The work around was to use JavaScript, just to make it work on Firefox.

It can now be implemented in CSS, which makes it really easy for you to disable or change your preference as well putting the responsibility of style on CSS and not some annoying JavaScript.

Re:Firefox 64 Released by Bjartr on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:08PM (#18658903)
You could use a css customizing extension or create your own userscript to force all scrollbar related css attributes to the `inital` value.
Re:Firefox 64 Released by kps on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:56PM (#18658318)
I just want working page-up and page-down keys.