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Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by arkades on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:30AM (#18648550)
We take measures now, for tissues where prions are a possible transmission risk. The article mis-represented that. But:

(1) there are only so many resources to go around. Should we be devoting them to vanishingly rare things rather than things that might actually affect you?

(2) prions will never be a wildfire plague. They have little or no tranmissive ability, by nature of being absolutely naked protein. One step up from that - encoding the protein for space constraints and encapsulating it - is called a virus.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by nwallin on Monday December 10, 2018 @05:47PM (#18651804)
> (2) prions will never be a wildfire plague. They have little or no tranmissive ability, by nature of being absolutely naked protein.

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) (affects deer) can be transmitted by infected saliva. One of the symptoms of symptoms of CWD is excessive saliva production. It is very transmissible, and is devastating captive populations of deer, although it is relatively rare in the wild.

I think if a similar TSE affected humans, spreadable by infected saliva, it would absolutely be a wildfire plague.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_wasting_disease

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by subroutine on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:41PM (#18653198)
Is there any mammalian prion disease not linked to the PRNP gene (which is fairly conserved across mammals)?

At first I assumed that 'prions' came in many flavors, like virus. However from my brief lit search, it seems like people are talking about (p)rion proteins as if they were't all (P)rion proteins (PRNP). If all mammalian 'prion' disease can be traced to a single conserved gene, I think the risk of another 'prion-like' disease cropping up is pretty low.

But then again, who knows? Prion disease still seems shrouded mystery, which I find odd given (1) how inherently interesting this topic seems, and (2) we've gotten really, really good at molecular biology.

I feel like we are missing a key piece of the puzzle when it comes to understanding prion disease. The literature seems to want people to conceptualize the disease etiology as such: an alternately folded (disease causing) variant of PRNP protein (PrPs) bumps into a normal version of PRNP (PrPc), causing a normal copy of PrPc to also misfold into PrPs. Rinse, repeat. So you can basically think of it like an enzyme that catalyzes a conformational change on versions of itself, in a feed-forward cascade. I feel like an alternative hypothesis however, could be one of an autoimmune response. The mammalian immune system, particularly the antibody system, is mind blowing. This system can recognize virtually any foreign protein -- it can even recognize specific sub-moieties and conformations of proteins (antigens). It must, do this while never mistaking an endogenous protein to be foreign; if it does, you get an autoimmune disease. My idea is basically that PrPs is just slightly different enough from PrPc to get tagged as foreign by the antibody system (which it absolutely can do, given that we can perform western blots to detect the PrPs variant), but also just similar enough for the antibody system to mistake some endogenous PRNP for the foreign version.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by chasil on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:31PM (#18656953)
Scrapie, a prion disease of goats and sheep, is severe enough that there are national efforts to combat it.

What if this were suddenly transmissible to humans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrapie

"In the United Kingdom, the government has put in place a National Scrapie Plan, which encourages breeding from sheep that are genetically more resistant to scrapie. This is intended to eventually reduce the incidence of the disease in the UK sheep population."

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by arkades on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:48PM (#18652763)
That is interesting, and new to me. I’ll have to read up on it more. Thank you for the link.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by zaarn on Monday December 10, 2018 @01:01PM (#18649779)
Nitpick but the step between virus and prion is a viroid; a naked piece of RNA. They mostly exist in plants to my knowledge and are basically the smallest possible infectious disease. The smallest viroids clock in at around 120 base pairs (240 nucleotides).
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by tossandturn on Monday December 10, 2018 @04:29PM (#18651311)
Prions are like gamma-induced bit flips, Viroids are like small code patches, and Viruses are self-deploying code patches.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by jvanderbot on Monday December 10, 2018 @05:13PM (#18651585)
What blows my mind is these aren't really analogies, they are in fact mostly truth.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by thinkpad20 on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:26PM (#18652359)
To be precise, these aren’t really analogies, they are in fact similes. :)
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by kenbellows on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:47PM (#18652465)
To be precise, similes are a type of analogy
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by selimthegrim on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:16PM (#18651970)
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by arkades on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:50PM (#18652771)
A virion is the singular noun for a viral particle. The viral genetic material plus capsid equal an individual virion.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by zaarn on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:51AM (#18653619)
Virion and Viriod are two different things. The former is about 10 to 100 times larger than the later.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by fao_ on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:12AM (#18653398)
> (2) prions will never be a wildfire plague. They have little or no tranmissive ability

Mad Cow Disease was caused by a prion[0].

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopat...

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by mirimir on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:19AM (#18653548)
And it was spread by the livestock industry.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by travisoneill1 on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:58AM (#18649245)
The example in the article has very little transmissive ability because it grows in the brain and eyes. If there were a respiratory prion disease that could be much different. By nature of being a protein they are simpler and harder to eliminate than bacteria or viruses:

> In a particularly vexing twist, prions are also nearly impervious to destruction, even when attacked using a strenuous combination of disinfectants, heat, and pressure.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by dahfizz on Monday December 10, 2018 @12:37PM (#18649584)
> If there were a respiratory prion disease that could be much different.

Not really. The point your parent is making is that prions themselves don't reproduce like viruses and bacteria. Its basically impossible for a large scale breakout to occur and spread.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by ergothus on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:38PM (#18650558)
Can you explain why? I'm not saying this is wrong, but they definitely replicate (by encountering and warping other proteins), so are you (and grandparent) saying that the replication rate is too slow? If so, why? Are you saying we have no means of transmitting proteins? (that sounds wrong, though I've been wrong before)

From my (ignorant, despite being interested in prions for decades now) perspective, you have something that (1) can replicate, (2) is durable (3) is harmful, and only the relative rarity of prions in general (because 1 and 3 are physically unusual to combine) have kept them from being a general problem. As we tinker with DNA and thus look into creating new proteins and factors that would influence protein-folding, I'd think it's worth taking the matter seriously (though not fear-mongering), certainly as part of our need to understand proteins better anyway.

What are my faulty assumptions?

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by PeterisP on Monday December 10, 2018 @03:13PM (#18650837)
A prion can't arbitrary replicate from "food" or "host", its replication is more like a damaged version of protein X that can damage that same protein X if it encounters it. In many aspects it stays the same protein - the exact same DNA, the exact same sequence, just folded differently.

A virus can overtake a cell and mobilize its resources to create a bajillion copies of that virus. A prion can transform only as much copies of that protein as that cell has made in its normal processes.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by ergothus on Monday December 10, 2018 @04:17PM (#18651234)
A bacteria replicates at a much smaller rate than a virus.

A virus requires a cell to replicate, bacteria require a much more limited range of hospitable environments.

Both bacteria and viruses "attempt" to create exact copies, just as a prion does. Admittedly prion replication probably has more accuracy, but that prions occur at all indicates the process allows for natural selection.

These don't seem to put prions outside of the "replication" category - they replicate by encountering other proteins, so they are in a body. Their rate of replication is limited (or boosted) by the rate of encountering these proteins. They attempt to create copies of themselves with the chance of failure or different end result.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by DennisP on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:35PM (#18650542)
But they do reproduce, by causing other proteins to misfold. If they didn't reproduce at all, then ingesting a few prions wouldn't cause any problems.

They can't reproduce outside of the body, but neither can viruses.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by jamiek88 on Monday December 10, 2018 @03:38PM (#18650999)
Yes but they can only warp their own specific kind of protein not take over an entire reproductive ability of the native cell.

It’s orders of magnitude less reproduction.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by nonbel on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:10PM (#18650359)
How is this at all a "twist"? The reason you cannot deactivate prions using these methods is that they are meant to denature protein. Prions are "amyloids"/beta-sheets, which means they are already in the lowest-energy state. This lowest-energy-state is exactly why the presence of prion can serve as a nucleation point for other proteins to denature into beta-sheets.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by travisoneill1 on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:42PM (#18650596)
I don't care whether or not it's a "twist". I care that there is an entire class of pathogen that we don't know how to sterilize a surface of.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by arkades on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:54PM (#18652781)
It’s been said a few times in this thread that that is a misrepresentation by the article. Allow me to quote at length from an article on the topic by Brown and Lee:

One of the characteristic features of prions is their resistance to a number of normal decontaminating procedures. These pathogens are resistant to processes affecting nucleic acids, such as hydrolysis or shearing [9]. However, agents that digest, denature, or modify proteins do have activity against prions [7]. The PrP purified from the brains of scrapie-infected animals (PrPSc) can be inactivated by prolonged autoclaving (at 121ºC and 15 psi for 4.5 hours), or immersion in 1N NaOH (for 30 minutes, repeat three times), or immersion in concentrated (>3 M) solutions of guanidine thiocyanate [10]. However, certain cautions prevail; it appears that inadequate autoclaving can establish heat-resistant subpopulations that fail to diminish with a further cycle of autoclaving [11]. Stainless steel instruments also may retain infectivity even after treatment with 10 percent formaldehyde [12,13].

Newer decontamination techniques are being investigated. There has been some success in sterilization using a combination of sodium dodecyl sulfate (SDS), proteinase K, and pronase [14]. A radio-frequency gas-plasma treatment has been shown to effectively decontaminate surgical instruments [15]. Another group has tested a decontamination formula combining copper metal ions with hydrogen peroxide [16].

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by mirimir on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:56AM (#18653501)
OK, but how do ophthalmologists typically decontaminate their instruments?
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by nonbel on Monday December 10, 2018 @03:07PM (#18650801)
You just use bleach and then autoclave:

>"combining autoclaving (even at 121 degrees C) with a sodium hydroxide treatment is extremely effective." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10658760

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by coryrc on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:16AM (#18653684)
Bleach is sodium hypochlorite; sodium hydroxide is lye/caustic soda.
Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by nonbel on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:40AM (#18655533)
Yea, sorry. Earlier in the abstract it mentioned sodium hypochlorite then I didnt read closely: "Strong sodium hypochiorite solutions achieve inactivation but other chlorine-releasing compounds are less effective"

Usually there is some sodium hydroxide in standard sodium hypochlorite bleach solution as well though, perhaps that explains why they reported it is the most effective of the chlorine bleaches.

Re:Prions, Nearly Indestructible and Universally Lethal, See... by kurthr on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:33AM (#18653587)
If any of the proteins involved in respiration were susceptible to lower free energy confirmations (different foldings that were entropically favorable in vivo) then they likely would already be present, there would be such a prion and life that used those proteins would be highly selected against. Respiration is very common in animals.

As it is, very few proteins in humans have alternate favorable form (by luck or selection?). The exception appears to be the extremely complex and relatively new nervous system of mammals. I'd guess that our immune systems might be another place to look, but that is very highly tested.

Frankly, this seems like a susceptibility that is rare because it is chemically odd not that there is a lack of potential exploitation. Luckily, the range of creatures that share our respiration system far exceeds the range of creatures which share our recently evolved nervous system.