News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dpkonofa on Friday December 07, 2018 @12:19PM (#18629456)
I feel the same way. I used to use my Windows machine for everything and didn't even own a Mac but working on a Mac has been a real joy comparatively, especially for dev work. Now, my Windows machine is relegated to just being a gaming rig and I'm 100% happy with that. When I heard that WSL was a thing, I went back to try and get that setup and, between trying to turn off Cortana, navigating the god-awful new Control Panel/Settings, and the terrible overall performance, I don't know how someone could subject themselves to that in a professional capacity. Windows to me is infuriating and I'm pretty technically proficient. I feel bad for the droves of users that end up on it and don't have a choice, especially those that aren't technically skilled. It's just bad now.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday December 07, 2018 @12:23PM (#18629497)
> I don't know how someone could subject themselves to that in a professional capacity.

Active Directory. Well, AD and a bunch of applications that are critical to the business only operating and supported on Windows. But the other OSs don't have anything as good for management of the environment as AD is.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by setquk on Friday December 07, 2018 @12:31PM (#18629584)
AD only works if all your clients are windows. In 2018, not all of them are. We're out of a monoculture now. Doing AD SSO on other platforms is a proper pain in the butt. For example when Microsoft deprecated some of the old protocols a few years back they broke RHEL entirely for 2 years.

Not sure there is another solution though. OAuth and various cloud logins etc isn't, yet.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday December 07, 2018 @12:36PM (#18629654)
> AD only works if all your clients are windows.

Uh, yeah, that's kinda my point. Outside of SV, pretty much every client is, and for this reason.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by irrational on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:16PM (#18632196)
Are you saying that outside of Silicon Valley pretty much every client is Windows? Where do you live?

I work for a Fortune 100 company (not in SV, or even California) with 70,000 employees. At least 50% (it's probably higher) of computers here are Macs. When I go to a meeting, the table is a sea of Mac laptops with the occasional Windows laptop here and there. And these aren't meetings with developers, I'm talking about sales, business, training, etc. people.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by wasdfff on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:53PM (#18632449)
That’s still extremely rare. Personal laptops are always up to personal preferences, but most organizations run on windows. At my employer, a university enrolling 50,000, everything is windows. If you wanted to request a new computer through the school to have access to shared directories, you can pick a dell desktop or one of two HP laptops. Macs are rare, and they are bought and forgot by IT. I’ve seen iMacs running leopard still; and they are all off of the intranet.

For my friends who do get macs from their workplace, it’s because they are 1 of just 20 employees and they don’t have anyone in IT, let alone a department or any policies.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by irrational on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:45AM (#18649127)
One difference might be that almost nobody has a desktop computer. The vast majority of people use a laptop. But they are free to select from a menu of about 20 different laptops including Mac Book Airs and Mac Book Pros. Almost everyone also has a company supplied phone. Again, they have the a selection of about 20 phones to select from, including Android and iPhones. So the environment here is very heterogeneous.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dijit on Friday December 07, 2018 @02:49PM (#18630930)
This is increasingly not the case though.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pjmlp on Friday December 07, 2018 @03:13PM (#18631171)
Not every country people can enjoy a quality level to afford Apple computers, even with IT salaries.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by sbuk on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:38PM (#18632351)
Why do you immediately jump to the conclusion that the parent was referring to just Macs?
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pjmlp on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:52PM (#18632442)
Because I have seldom worked in environments that allowed anything else as desktop.

UNIX derived OSes tend to be relegated to the server room, accessed remotely and live on their own network.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dijit on Friday December 07, 2018 @04:10PM (#18631703)
Fair. But I was commenting more on the environments that historically were served well by AD (offices) are growing in use of Apple computers.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday December 07, 2018 @04:22PM (#18631803)
[Citation Needed]

I can believe that this is a true statement inside the reality distortion bubble around SV, but here in the real world I'll need to see some evidence.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dijit on Friday December 07, 2018 @07:02PM (#18632809)
The problem is that you're assuming I'm in SV, I'm in a small Swedish city and I'm seeing our _very_ windows heavy company starting to adopt Apple computers.

And when I think of the companies I worked for in London they were also increasing the Apple quotient of desktop/laptop machines.

Yes, this is anecdatum but I really can't tell you how strongly integrated Windows is at my company and we're still seeing adoption of Apple computers.

Regardless of that, Sysadmins and Developers tend to get to choose their OS at most sensible companies. (Every company I've worked for, barring the current, has allowed Linux; most even encouraged it)

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by freeone3000 on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:16PM (#18632194)
MICROSOFT went heterogeneous client for their AD. I'm sure others can.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by tw04 on Friday December 07, 2018 @03:54PM (#18631530)
>AD only works if all your clients are windows. In 2018, not all of them are. We're out of a monoculture now. Doing AD SSO on other platforms is a proper pain in the butt.

That's simply untrue. Every large org I work with has unified auth with ad and a secondary package like centrify. It's trivial to get working.

And that's ignoring all the linux appliances and embeded Linux flavors (think lights out management) that support AD out of the box.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dpkonofa on Friday December 07, 2018 @12:40PM (#18629694)
While I think that's a good point, there are alternatives to AD at this point in time. Anyone using that as a crutch is just giving excuses for not wanting to update their infrastructure.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday December 07, 2018 @02:02PM (#18630506)
And those alternatives would be...?
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by ghostly_s on Friday December 07, 2018 @02:19PM (#18630664)
MS is very slowly moving away from AD themselves to a "MDM" cloud-provisioning model more or less copied wholesale from what Apple did with iOS. They claim that binding machines and users to AD is optional these days, but the alternative workflow leaves a whooooole lotta gaps. Maybe in 5 years it will be a real alternative.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by monocasa on Friday December 07, 2018 @02:28PM (#18630745)
Plug: I work out JumpCloud, a directory as a service company.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by aasasd on Friday December 07, 2018 @02:58PM (#18631019)
Oh boy, if they somehow made the control panel even worse than it was in Win7, I'll have to take a look at it myself.

I've counted the different kinds of windows in Win7 control panel: there are ten of them. Ten distinct methods of organizing stuff in a window, all in the settings section of the OS, and that's not including third-party additions. There are navigational widgets that don't occur anywhere else in the OS (sidebars with links, iirc).

Also, all the hours lost in wandering through the control panel due to its awful localization…

These days, I'm pretty sure control panels can be used as a litmus test as to whether the GUI authors have a grip on UI design.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by freeone3000 on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:19PM (#18632217)
Windows 10 added a separate settings menu which doesn't support CPL applets so they kept the old one too. So now all of your settings are in two different places, but phrased slightly differently and in two menu trees and with fewer or more options for each setting. Oh, and now all the windows are WPF in a SPA, so they look different too.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by h1d on Saturday December 08, 2018 @05:20AM (#18634684)
It feels the settings are in dozen different places on Windows to begin with when it could go down 5 levels or deeper to get to the option you're looking for.

The "good old" control panel doesn't even look categorized well.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by m_mueller on Friday December 07, 2018 @06:24PM (#18632612)
ha! you’ll love windows 10 let me tell you...
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pjmlp on Friday December 07, 2018 @03:08PM (#18631117)
Apple wanting me to know all special keys by heart and not having ergonomic keyboards is one of the reasons that puts me off.

Plus why do they have to have a microscopic return key on laptops?

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by aasasd on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:28PM (#18632269)
I'm using MS Natural 4000 with a Macbook. Alt and Win keys are remapped through the standard settings, the context menu key is remapped with Karabiner. Some extra keys can be mapped, only alas the numbered ones aren't seen even by USB Overdrive.

(Of course, the Natural/Sculpt series barely scrapes the ‘ergonomics,’ what with the slanted key layout inherited from typewriters, the flat board made for extendable fingers instead of jointed ones, the too-low wrist pad.)

As for the special keys, I'm not sure what that's about, since I'm using pretty much the same number of hotkeys as I did in Linux and a bit more than in Windows. I'm also using Alfred for many commands, which are made in English instead of obscure semi-random keys.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by memco on Friday December 07, 2018 @04:32PM (#18631880)
One of my most favorite things on MacOS is that cod+? Opens the help search menu which you can use to type the name of a command you want to run but don’t know where to find or what combo it uses. It’s especially useful for menu items that don’t have a key map assigned.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by dpkonofa on Saturday December 08, 2018 @10:45PM (#18639133)
What? They don't want you to know them by heart that's why they're all listed in the menu next to every command that has them and they update live as you hold down the keys so you can see what modifiers are available.

Also, you can use whatever keyboard you want. I don't see how this is an issue at all... And what microscopic return key are you referring to? The return key on my MacBook is nearly the same size (maybe a half-centimeter shorter) than my full-size desktop keyboard.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by irrational on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:21PM (#18632231)
I use a MicroSoft ergonomic keyboard with my Mac Pro. It works just fine. I also have all of my keys mapped to the same as what I was used to when I used to use Windows (ironically the last time I used Windows was about 15 years ago, old habits die hard).
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by snarfy on Friday December 07, 2018 @01:14PM (#18630038)
I use windows on my dev machine for one reason - visual studio.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by modeless on Friday December 07, 2018 @01:48PM (#18630361)
I recently tried setting up an alternative dev environment on Linux and it takes some work but I think Visual Studio can be matched on Linux now for C++ development.

The combination of VSCode, cquery, and clangd can provide code completion and navigation that I think is finally on par with IntelliSense, and it scales to large projects. VSCode's GDB integration is tolerable for debugging.

Linux has some definite advantages too. For one thing the filesystem is just blazing fast, which really helps with git. Various other things are faster too, like I'm writing an OpenGL app and creating a GL context is much faster on Linux. Also I've been trying out https://zapcc.com which made my builds five times faster, no joke. I'd almost move to Linux for that alone.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by umanwizard on Friday December 07, 2018 @01:55PM (#18630445)
Just want to second this. Cquery can be finicky to get working, especially if your project involves precompiled headers (I've found that building cquery from source myself and ensuring that it's linked against the same version of libclang as the clang I'm using for compilation helps).

But once it's working, cquery is an absolute game changer for C++ development. It feels like a completely different activity than it did before.

Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pjmlp on Friday December 07, 2018 @03:15PM (#18631193)
VS is so much more than just code completion and navigation, even for C++.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by modeless on Friday December 07, 2018 @04:57PM (#18632072)
Code completion, navigation, and debugging are the only VS features I miss on other platforms. What C++ features are you thinking of?
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pjmlp on Friday December 07, 2018 @05:51PM (#18632436)
Architecture modelling, unit testing, C++/CLI, C++/CX (now C++/WinRT), MFC/UWP, multi-threading/GPGPU debugging, secure STL, SDL annotations, code maps.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by criddell on Friday December 07, 2018 @08:31PM (#18633267)
I use the refactoring features quite a bit. The dialog editor is pretty easy to use as well.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by pknopf on Friday December 07, 2018 @09:37PM (#18633539)
I'd love to see a blog post that gets a fully-featured C++ dev env working in VSCode.
Re:From macOS to Windows and WSL by h1d on Saturday December 08, 2018 @05:17AM (#18634675)
I started doing web dev before 2000. Only Windows worked as a dev machine then and OS X came around but obviously lack of third party tools made it a no go. Now I can't think of going back to Windows because third party tools that I take as granted aren't even avaialable with same level of quality on Windows.

3 or so years ago, I tried to set up a dev environment on Windows just see how good it can be then but gave up in 1 hour knowing it'll just slow me down bad.

I have no idea why most of people I know around still use Windows (and funnily 1 guy uses Linux)