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Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by mchannon on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @12:26PM (#18504310)
As planes use most of their energy to not crash into the ground, I could see the most practical use of this technology for propulsion where crashing isn't a major concern.

Airships (dirigibles/blimps), and to a lesser extent, sea and land vehicles.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by schiffern on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @04:30PM (#18506267)
>planes use most of their energy to not crash into the ground

Surprisingly, not by much!

To the first approximation an optimized plane will use 50% of its power during cruise generating lift ("not crashing into the ground"), and 50% of its power overcoming drag.[1] The tie is broken because planes expend extra more energy climbing than they save descending, and that's also part of "not crashing into the ground." :)

[1] http://www.withouthotair.com/cC/page_272.shtml

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by godelski on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:46PM (#18505436)
I wouldn't expect to see this on passenger aircraft anytime soon. They even had to build light weight high voltage converters. There's also a lot of safety things involved when you're dealing with tens of kV (which in a big craft we're talking at lease MV). BUT these things could be used for silent drones. Think more spy type drones, not predator type drones.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by tener on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @03:41PM (#18505894)
There is a lot of safety stuff with the current design of the airplanes. If this is just simpler or had fewer parts that can break, it may still be a win.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by istjohn on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @04:33PM (#18506278)
I'm pretty sure the voltage wouldn't need to increase for a bigger aircraft. The current would increase as you ionize more nitrogen molecules, but the voltage required to tear away the electrons doesn't change.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by brian-armstrong on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @06:31PM (#18506898)
A bigger plane would need to ionise larger nitrogen molecules.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by alanbernstein on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @06:46PM (#18506958)
This is why jumbonium was invented.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by antonvs on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @10:44PM (#18507727)
Bad news for Airbus
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by jessriedel on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @03:37PM (#18505858)
> As planes use most of their energy to not crash into the ground

Not disputing you, but do you have a quick argument for this? My understanding is that passenger planes fly at high altitudes because at lower altitudes (higher pressures) they would expend most of their energy pushing air out of the way.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by ThrustVectoring on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @09:05PM (#18507461)
>My understanding is that passenger planes fly at high altitudes because at lower altitudes (higher pressures) they would expend most of their energy pushing air out of the way.

The way I think about it is that commercial flights spend the vast majority of the time at "cruising speed", where the engines are most efficient on a power/fuel basis. The flight already dissipates 100% of engine power output into pushing air out of the way, so what altitude does is determine what airspeed that happens at. At lower altitudes, there's more air molecules displaced per foot of travel, so the airspeed is lower.

So airplanes fly up at 30k feet because it's faster at the same power output, which also happens to be more fuel efficient, but it's not like the plane runs the engines any harder if they cruise at a lower altitude.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by soperj on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @03:59PM (#18506053)
at high altitudes there's also a lot less turbulence.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @05:03PM (#18506472)
At high altitudes there’s also a lot less ground.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by ccozan on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @04:27PM (#18506247)
so why not use jets to reach cruise altitude, then switch to ion thrusters ( for which you don't need fuel )?
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by ghayes on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @06:24PM (#18506870)
In the video included in this article [https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/small-drone-soars-on...], the subject discusses that ion thrusters are less effective at higher altitudes as the air is rarified.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by fwip on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @06:15PM (#18506835)
Ion thrusters still need "fuel" in the form of electricity from batteries.

These ion thrusters have worse thrust/watt than an electric propellor drive, and far worse than the jet engines they use.

So there's not really any reason to use ion thrusters at cruising altitude, unless the relative silence is worth paying a lot more per-ticket.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by girvo on Thursday November 22, 2018 @01:59AM (#18508370)
> These ion thrusters have worse thrust/watt than an electric propellor drive, and far worse than the jet engines they use.

From the Ars article (for others who were curious about this):

> Measurements showed the thrusters collectively generated five newtons for each kilowatt of power, which is actually similar to the output of jet engines. But because of many inefficiencies in the system, the overall efficiency was only about 2.5 percent—well below that of conventional aircraft.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by taneq on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @06:51PM (#18506977)
> So there's not really any reason to use ion thrusters at cruising altitude, unless the relative silence is worth paying a lot more per-ticket.

Even then, I'd imagine that a significant portion of the noise in an airliner is wind noise rather than engine noise. Your plane is only going to get "less noisy", not "silent". Good noise canceling earphones are a far better solution (I have some specifically for plane flights, they're awesome!)

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by mrfusion on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @09:15PM (#18507491)
Potentially lower maintenance costs with no moving parts. Plus potentially cheaper to manufacture.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by ccozan on Thursday November 22, 2018 @06:27AM (#18509340)
And also need to transport only a fraction of the jet fuel
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by fwip on Saturday November 24, 2018 @01:37AM (#18520818)
But many more pounds of batteries.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by gaius on Thursday November 22, 2018 @09:32AM (#18510180)
so why not use jets to reach cruise altitude, then switch to ion thrusters ( for which you don't need fuel

Because you would need to restart the engines to land, and that is when they are at a higher risk of failure. You could maybe throttle them right back but keep them ticking over.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by soperj on Thursday November 22, 2018 @12:18PM (#18511196)
only reason you want no noise is for take off and landing. No one really cares once it's at cruising altitude.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by shostack on Thursday November 22, 2018 @01:52AM (#18508343)
The sooner we get back to the age of dirigibles the better.

Personally, I'm a little surprised we don't have them in the Bay Area. With our traffic and (mostly) year round nice weather, and great solar energy potential it seems like it could be a win.

But then again I don't know much about the technology or it's limitations.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by yogaboll on Saturday November 24, 2018 @02:00PM (#18523451)
It's limited by the fact that you need a very large volume of lighter-than-air gas to lift a human. The theoretical maximum lift capability of 1 m^3 of hydrogen is just about 1.1 kg so you will need a really big airship to carry a passenger.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by albertgoeswoof on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @04:34PM (#18506283)
This engine will struggle at high altitudes because there’s less air molecules to ionise
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by FlyMoreRockets on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @05:04PM (#18506480)
Maybe. At high altitudes, the ions can be accelerated to much higher velocities before losing energy due to molecular collisions. Higher acceleration of the working fluid, more thrust and higher efficiencies. Much like a rocket. There is also a lot less drag on the rest of the vehicle.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by grondilu on Thursday November 22, 2018 @04:19PM (#18512645)
Aren't most planes capable of gliding well enough to land?
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by isostatic on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @12:46PM (#18504484)
> I could see the most practical use of this technology for propulsion where crashing isn't a major concern.

Missiles jumped to mind. That's their whole purpose.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by stouset on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:27PM (#18504823)
Missiles, just like planes, still use most of their energy to not crash into the ground.

The point was that this current design won’t be enough energy to keep a heavy vehicle aloft, but it could be enough to propel something that can passively stay airborne.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by moftz on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:26PM (#18504816)
Except you need missiles to go much faster than ion thrusters can go. 11 mph is enough for someone to shoot down your missile with a rifle.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by jandrese on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:52PM (#18505007)
At 11 mph they could outrun it on foot.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by isostatic on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @03:34PM (#18505836)
Prepare to engage enemy . . . bogey’s airspeed not sufficient for intercept. Suggest we get out and walk
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by moftz on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @01:47PM (#18554368)
Anti-missile defense provided by strong gusts of wind.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by dangerlibrary on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:01PM (#18505082)
s/rifle/rock/
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by cal5k on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:22PM (#18504792)
"We've fired the missiles, sir"

"Excellent... when do they hit?"

"According to our calculations... ohhh about 6 weeks from now"

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by isostatic on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:28PM (#18504828)
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

I was thinking how Musk could do that. Launch some tungstan rods into a highly eliptical orbit, small thruster + control pack on them to adjust their orbit when required. When it's out at say 300,000k+ fire the engine for a few seconds, adjusting the orbit so it will crash into the chosen target a few days from now. The high apogee means not a lot of power to change orbit to collision, and almost impossible to detect. It would likely appear to be an asteroid hit.

Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by ben_w on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:13PM (#18505180)
I’ve looked at this idea myself. At current cost per kg to LEO launch and kW/kg solar, even if you could totally ignore reaction mass (I dunno, invent a ramscoop for van Allen belts or something), it only becomes cost competitive with dynamite after a few years.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by DuskStar on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @05:34PM (#18506649)
Dynamite doesn't come with a delivery mechanism though, which might change the equation a little.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by rripken on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:05PM (#18505110)
You may like Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by patrickg_zill on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:04PM (#18505105)
It's rumored that the US military has a "Rod of God" satellite. No way to confirm its existence of course.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by thrill on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:38PM (#18505367)
That would certainly raise the level of Bitcoin blackmail.
Re:Silent and Simple Ion Engine Powers a Plane with No Movin... by Tade0 on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @02:14PM (#18505195)
I think his guy is in that Tesla Roadster in space.