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Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by pashabitz on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:15AM (#18442062)
I think it's important to look at the broader issue: "App stores" are walled gardens, policed by corporations and are the opposite of freedom. The web is open and free. We made a deal with the devil when we collectively decided to write and use apps and not the web. This is just one symptom.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by sambeau on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:57AM (#18442498)
Developers only have themselves to blame. We allowed our technology to be used to spam, cheat and steal from our non-tech family and friends. We made tools that helped the bad-guys and did very little when our non-tech family and friends threw their hands up in confusion and cried for help. We sighed. We called them idiots and rolled our eyes.

We now have to live with a bunch mostly sensible though occasionally over-sensitive rules to make sure we don't try to trick and cheat our non-tech brethren.

We of course still have plenty of other super-techy places we can play—: Linux, Raspberry Pies, Embedded Devices, the whole of server-side internet.

Yet we still moan because someone has walled a bit of it off to protect ordinary people from charlatans.

Boo-hoo.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by TAForObvReasons on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:15PM (#18442648)
You were downvoted but this is spot-on, and you see this debate happening everywhere in tech. The entire GDPR was rooted in the (correct) observation that the tech sector could not self-regulate, that actual laws with nontrivial punishment were required to force tech companies to stop shady behaviors.

Even YC isn't clean in this regard. They funded a startup called InstallMonetizer that promulgated the drive-by installer problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 . There's a great quote from that post:

> You can make a lot of money doing all kinds of popular things -- pimping women, selling drugs, selling 'likes' on facebook, selling botnets that create fake clicks on advertisers, ponzi schemes, etc. Some are illegal, some are just barely legal, but they are all damaging to someone. This line of business is known as 'scummy' and InstallMonetizer is plain 'scummy'.

Yes we have to blame those who perpetrate the behavior, but we also have to blame ourselves for not being more aggressive in sounding the alarm. For many influential people who could have put a stop to this, the Upton Sinclair quote applies:

> It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by amelius on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:45PM (#18444205)
The problem is that either policing is not a role for a company, or there should be laws that protect both the developer and the user, like in a normal market.

Governments are partly to blame here, for not addressing platform economies. But some are working on it [1].

[1] http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/image/docum...

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by skybrian on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:09PM (#18443830)
The idea that "we" have the power to prevent software from being misused is nonsense. Most software (and all open source software, by definition) can be used for things the author of the software doesn't approve of.

For services, there is more scope to prevent misuse, but it's a never-ending battle.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by im3w1l on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @12:52AM (#18447813)
Speak for yourself
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by jillesvangurp on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:15PM (#18443892)
There's that and the notion that as a distribution mechanism app stores are hopelessly ineffective unless you happen to have bribed your way into being featured or listed in their top whatever (at great expense).

(Mobile) web is where the action is these days. The conversion from there to app installs is typically beyond terrible. It just doesn't matter how good your app is. The vast majority of your web users will never see your app or care to see it.

A lot of the stuff that currently requires native, you might be able to pull off via wasm instead. In any case, most users simply don't bother with installing apps for anything except a handful of things they really need. You are simply not the center of their universe. So, focus on mobile web.

Make it a progressive mobile web app and you have Android covered as well. And whatever else people might use these days (Ipads, Amazon kindles, chrome books, windows ARM, etc.). Add a bit of responsive design and it works on desktops as well. If successful, you can still package your web app as a native app. Lots of other web developers do this. If Apple ever crippled their embedded browser, it would break most of the apps in their store.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by lifty on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @04:12PM (#18444951)
You might be right but that doesn't reflect my own experience. I tend prefer native applications when using my mobile phone and I only use the browser for consuming text content. When it comes to more interactive experiences like maps, booking tickets, ordering food, social media etc. I definitely prefer native applications.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by avip on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:16PM (#18442664)
Alas, a walled garden is not the opposite of freedom. Indeed, in many places, living in a walled garden will make you factually freeer than your fellows outside.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by wool_gather on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:26PM (#18443355)
Particularly in this case we should note that while there may be lost freedom for some developers, there is an increase in freedom for some users. They gain the freedom to explore the wares available in the app market without spending (as much) time worrying about bad actors.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by Dotnaught on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:47PM (#18442967)
Your argument misrepresents the metaphor. It's the wall that's the barrier to freedom, not what goes on within.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by mattkevan on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:11PM (#18443205)
Freedom without boundaries and trust isn’t freedom but anarchy.

A game is only a game if all the players have a shared set of rules and can trust each other to stay within them. As soon as someone breaks the rules the game is over, and the freedom provided is lost.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by ilikehurdles on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:35PM (#18446972)
Both of these points are wrong.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by mattkevan on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:19AM (#18449296)
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by avip on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:54PM (#18443045)
A wall can provide much freedom, depending on what’s outside. Freedom is a complicated term.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by Dotnaught on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @04:09PM (#18444924)
Freedom is slavery; ignorance is strength.

You're constructing a scenario to justify an abstract argument. The wall is the only salient feature in the walled garden metaphor. There's no terror lurking outside.

If you mean to imply that Apple's oversight has some advantages, such as security, that's a separate issue.

In the context of Apple's app store rules, the wall refers to Apple's rules. The absence of those rules does not reduce your freedom as a developer; you're can still abide by them without Apple requiring your to do so. But you have more choice without the rules.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by lvs on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:59PM (#18443716)
I think you're extending an analogy to a philosophical place it doesn't go: from a "walled garden" to "the rule of law in a free society." There are a variety of features of the latter that are not inherent in the former.

For example, justice in a free society should not be arbitrary and capricious. It should be fair and equal, and applied with discretion. A society where minor rules are difficult to understand but are enforced to the maximum extent is a tyranny.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by fatbird on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:37PM (#18442866)
This is an under-represented viewpoint. The freedom we constantly discuss in terms of app stores is freedom of possibility, but it comes at a cost in time and effort that reduces one's material freedom.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by richev on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @04:56PM (#18445283)
Doesn't it depend on the size of the garden, and the diversity within?
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by izacus on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:31AM (#18442215)
You can of course still write software outside app stores and provide best of both. Not every computer in this world is a walled garden.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by i_am_nomad on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:35AM (#18442261)
You are right, and not just technically. But the problem with walled gardens is that they're safe and easy for people unable to navigate the world outside of them. Most people are unable or unwilling to sideload apps onto their devices, and that is not their fault. So when the walled garden becomes too unfree and tyrannical, the companies maintaining those gardens are to blame.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by foxX on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:56AM (#18442490)
> and that is not their fault

Except for some corporate environment, I don't see how it's not their fault. It's easier than ever to make an informed decision before using one's wallet and it's every living, functioning human's duty to improve, grow and learn.

Totally tired of apps that are nothing else than options-less and incontrolable browsers.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by i_am_nomad on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:10PM (#18442606)
You make a valuable point about personal responsibility that I agree with, so I may have to reconsider my original position. (I upvoted you.) But, I would also point out that while there is much more available information to make such decisions, that info is much less comprehensible to the average consumer, who is almost certainly much less savvy about technology than you are.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by foxX on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @05:23PM (#18445493)
Also vendors doing their best with astroturfing and obfuscating their works. I wonder why.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by amelius on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:40PM (#18444151)
Yes, it's one thing if the government regulates a market, yet another if a company regulates it ...
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by sonnyblarney on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:11PM (#18443855)
"We made a deal with the devil when we collectively decided to write and use apps and not the web."

No - apps are fine.

Even app stores are fine.

It's the fact that you can't distribute an app outside an app store ... this is a problem.

So basically Apple is the problem, everyone else is fine.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by chipotle_coyote on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:29PM (#18444599)
I half-agree. Maybe three-quarters? I would prefer that Apple let applications be distributed outside their app store; the mechanisms are all in place for them to be able to still have tools to stop genuinely bad actors this way (e.g., only allow signed applications to be side-loaded, so even if apps can't be yanked from a store, the developer certificate can still be revoked).

But even if they did that (which I rate as "unlikely but not as impossible as many others think"), there's a big problem with them being inconsistent and even capricious in rules enforcement coupled with badly communicating when issues arise. While that's a huge problem as long as they're effectively the only game in town for app distribution, it would... still be a huge problem even if that weren't true, because the chances are they would still far and away be the biggest app store.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by scarface74 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:22PM (#18443970)
It’s only a “problem” for a relatively few techies. Most people would be better served by a wall gardened. Seeing the mess that the average consumer makes on thier Windows computers is evidence.

My mom would never have to worry about getting malware because she searched for a printer driver if she had an iPad. Heck, she wouldn’t have had to worry about a printer driver at all.

And if you want to see what happens on mobile when you have an App Store with an out clause like on Android for the common consumer, look no further than what happened with Fortnight.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by sonnyblarney on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:41PM (#18444693)
I totally disagree and the evidence is Android.

A) Android doesn't have some vast and ugly problem with malfeasance.

B) It's entirely possible to educate customers that if they go outside of respected shops - they run the risk of problems.

C) The 'Windows' analogy doesn't really hold because mobile OS APIs are totally locked down. Any app installed on Windows/Mac can effectively wipe out your machine. It's a huge risk. An android app has very limited API access, moreover, the user has to grant explicit rights.

Fortnight is not a bad example of anything really.

There's no evidence that people really benefit from fully walled garden.

Moreover, there's evidence that they can't get the apps and functionality they need, because there are quite a number of apps that simply cannot be easily developed and deployed in iPhone - so many corporate and B2B apps. It's possible in only limited scenarios.

The 'security' issue is not real. It's a tactic by Apple to control the market and that's mostly it.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by scarface74 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @04:34PM (#18445122)
A) Android doesn't have some vast and ugly problem with malfeasance.

https://drfone.wondershare.com/android-tips/top-android-viru...

It's entirely possible to educate customers that if they go outside of respected shops - they run the risk of problems.

People have been saying the same thing about PCs since the 80s. How has that worked out?

An android app has very limited API access, moreover, the user has to grant explicit rights.

Like “Access File System”,”read phone state”, etc.?

Fortnite isn’t a good example of anything.

https://www.cnet.com/news/just-as-critics-feared-fortnite-fo...

There's no evidence that people really benefit from fully walled garden.

Except that you never hear about the malware on iOS that is able to be installed on Android devices.

There's no evidence that people really benefit from fully walled garden.

There is plenty of B2B software on iOS, a large multinational company I use to work for distributed all types of apps for their employees that never went through the App Store. Another company I worked for distributed B2B software for other customers.

Moreover, there's evidence that they can't get the apps and functionality they need,

What apps does the general non techie consumer “need” or “want” that they can’t get on iOS.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by sonnyblarney on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @08:26PM (#18446586)
A windows app can do anything do your computer. Spyware, malware, erase the hard drive. No permissions needed.

Android - it's very limited what they can do - and they need permission.

This is perfectly fair.

There is basically no reason for a walled garden - that 'there exists some malware' on Android is not evidence that 'open' is a problem, it's just evidence that 'open will have some problems' - which I admit.

The very minor issues that can exist on Android are easily worth the open nature of the platform.

"What apps can't I get" ?

Well, this HN reader for one.

There are 100x more examples of decent apps being rejected from iOS than there are serious problems in Android.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by scarface74 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:26PM (#18446923)
Android - it's very limited what they can do - and they need permission

Have you seen the list of permissions that allow an app to do basically anything on an Android phone? And if you think asking for permission before an app is granted these widespread permission are good enough, that’s just about as effective as UAC was on Vista.

There is basically no reason for a walled garden - that 'there exists some malware' on Android is not evidence that 'open' is a problem, it's just evidence that 'open will have some problems' - which I admit. The very minor issues that can exist on Android are easily worth the open nature of the platform.

It may be worth it to you but not to the millions of people that click yes to every dialog box. These are the same people that have ten toolbars on their web browser.

Well, this HN reader for one. There are 100x more examples of decent apps being rejected from iOS than there are serious problems in Android.

The people who want an app to read Hacker News are dwarfed by the amount of people who would just as easily install ransomware on their phone as they would on Windows.

I’ll install almost any app on my phone/iPad/AppleTV just to try out because it can’t do any harm. I would have to treat an Android phone like I treat installing software on Windows - only from a few trusted sources.

You can’t even install CloudFlare’s recently released app without it asking for microphone access and file access.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by im3w1l on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:00AM (#18447844)
There are a few things, but porn games is probably the biggest.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by int_19h on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @08:57PM (#18446764)
A walled garden with a discreet gate that one needs to know how to open would still serve the non-techie crowd perfectly well, without compromising freedom for the rest.
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by scarface74 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:27PM (#18446924)
How well did that work with Windows UAC?
Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by int_19h on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:28AM (#18448186)
UAC is a bad example - it's more like a walled garden where the wall consists entirely of gates, and when you approach any, it asks you if you want to open that. Hardly discreet.

In any case, this was in the context of app stores. What I meant is the ability to go flip a switch that enables sideloading, as you can do with Android or Win10 Store apps, if you know that one exists - on the assumption that if you do, you also know the risks. On Win10 specifically, this is stashed away in the system settings page titled "For developers", which comes with a bunch of warnings, so it's not something you can turn on by accident.

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by scarface74 on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:08AM (#18449240)
You just need that one person who thinks they are an “advanced user” to tell everyone else the secret trick and it spreads like a virus. About like all of the iOS users that aggressively quit apps because they think it increases battery life.

Or an app like Fortnite....

Re:My App Is Dead in the Water by int_19h on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:46AM (#18449776)
And yet this doesn't happen on Android.