News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @06:13AM (#18335165)
I'm afraid the problem will fix itself soon enough. WW3 could be around the corner according to the people behind the Doomsday Clock. Climate change will cause famine, natural disasters and mass migrations. Poverty, overpriced health care and a lack of common social structure (every man for himself) will lower the life expectancy again after decades of increase.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by mtberatwork on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:21AM (#18336185)
> Poverty, overpriced health care and a lack of common social structure (every man for himself) will lower the life expectancy again after decades of increase.

This seems to be a very US specific outlook on things that most western countries have long since figured out. Extreme poverty, lack of health care, lack of social safety nets - all self-inflicted in the US. Take for example the recent closings of hospitals in rural areas of red states that have refused Medicaid expansion due to extreme political polarization [1]. It doesn't have to be that way, especially in a country as wealthy as the US.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/29/upshot/a-sense-of-alarm-a...

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by kiliantics on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:14PM (#18342358)
The problem is that western countries will not be the first ones to experience the consequences of climate change. Most likely the first victims will be in places where such social safety nets barely exist. Arguably, this is already happening, which is why we are seeing civil unrest and mass migration from North Africa and the Middle East, where droughts and famine were a factor in many of the instabilities.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by uxcolumbo on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:06AM (#18335392)
> I'm afraid the problem will fix itself soon enough. WW3 could be around the corner according to the people behind the Doomsday Clock[...]

I wouldn't call WW3 a fix (short term anyway).

Even a small nuclear exchange would have devastating ecological consequences [0]

[0] "Radioactive fallout from these weapons’ debris clouds would reach the stratosphere, where it would travel worldwide, potentially contaminating crops and livestock as well as causing radiation sickness and cancer directly. Later, this fallout would cause genetic mutations in plants, animals and human beings, as it has in the vicinity of the Chernobyl nuclear accident."

From: https://medium.com/freeman-spogli-institute-for-internationa...

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by travisoneill1 on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:11AM (#18335743)
This has been tested and disproven by the very large nuclear exchanges that have already taken place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=856fWEltiXo
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by code_duck on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:36AM (#18335539)
I think the idea is that the massive depopulation caused by what you describe would function as a ‘fix’.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by pvaldes on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:27AM (#18335837)
A fix or an end. It is said that without enough population to watch and repair the current nuclear systems, the problem would quickly scalate in a few years when nuclear plants in the planet would deteriorate, get out of control and explode one after one.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by CalRobert on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:38AM (#18335921)
That would be devastating for individual organisms, but what would the large scale ecological impact be? Chernobyl is home to quite a bit of wildlife as I understand it.

Also, if we're talking about a world after the exchange of thousands of ICBM's I'm not sure how much relative impact the melting down of the world's nuclear power plants would have.

The problem has been considered before, though probably as a general safety issue rather than trying not to further irradiate a barren world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_nuclear_safety

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by code_duck on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:17PM (#18338219)
Wildlife thrive near Chernobyl because normal human activity is more destructive than that radiological disaster has been.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by pvaldes on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:26PM (#18338349)
And because there is a replacement outside. Chernobil is acting as a sink for some species with individuals inside being killed faster but replaced with immigrants constantly.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by code_duck on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:28PM (#18342897)
I thought studies said that mortality wasn’t significantly increased, though some deformities were?
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by drb91 on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:35AM (#18335529)
Dark. I can see the immediate consequences would be atrocious. How would nuclear fallout affect wider gene pools and extinction rates? I’ve always envisioned the “apocalyptic” scenario to be a nuclear winter. Is that accurate?
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by deialtrous on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:16AM (#18336630)
The fallout myth isn't true. And chernobyl is a perfect example. It caused the accidental creation of a huge nature preserve where species thought to be locally extinct are now thriving. Most wild animals don't live long enough for the slightly increased cancer rates to matter. The lack of humans destroying everything makes a huge difference on the other hand.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by titzer on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:51AM (#18335625)
> I'm afraid the problem will fix itself soon enough. WW3 could be around the corner according to the people behind the Doomsday Clock.

Nah, I doubt it. War is bad for business, and the global economy needs peace in order to extract maximum profit. Best to keep those wars to little backwater countries so we can keep spending trillions on mega-high-tech weapons without really disrupting the flow of money to bigcorp.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by stephengillie on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:28AM (#18335849)
War is good for business - 34th Rule of Acquisition (Ferengi, Star Trek)
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by titzer on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:43AM (#18335945)
Well, war is good for the war racket, but generally not good for trade in the vast majority of other goods.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by bpicolo on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:09AM (#18336087)
Globalization is in full swing drastically more than it was during large-scale wartime. Hard to imagine a world war happening in that context
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by wcoenen on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:58PM (#18338761)
Right before world war I, globalization was peaking and people also thought that large scale war was impossible because of it.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by saiya-jin on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:40AM (#18336315)
Not in the current context, but imagine darker world, people pushed into poverty, starvation, desperation. Dictatorships, people like Trump would be fondly remembered for their friendly and kind policies. There are no limits how dark things can potentially get.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by stephengillie on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:51AM (#18336427)
You're thinking of the 35th Rule of Acquisition - Peace is good for business.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by quickthrower2 on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @06:49AM (#18335324)
But does that fix it? Isn't it a vicious cycle once methane is released from the melting ice. And a collapsed civilisation won't have the budget to fix it.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by shoo on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:02AM (#18335379)
from a sufficiently misanthropic perspective that global human over-population is "the problem" , both methane release, civilisation collapse, and lack of budget to maintain or build infrastructure and systems like healthcare all sound like they are part of the "fix".

I don't really think it's helpful to talk about "the" problem, there's a big mess of coupled systems and most "moves" available to us have unpleasant side effects or unknown side effects on global or long-term time scales. we have a limited time and resource window where moves are still available.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by sambull on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:56AM (#18336018)
No it doesn't unfortunately. Even with no 1% pop going forward we would still have to remove the cco2 and find a way to regulate our temp. The time line makes it sound like those evil hippies were right but lost so we all have.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by rootsudo on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @06:47AM (#18335312)
To be fair, the Doomsday Clock is updated once a year in January. With recent political affairs in NK, we may have just bought ourselves another minute.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by api on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:07AM (#18336075)
War is one of the most environmentally destructive things we do, and it's usually followed by a period of expansion.
Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by feistypharit on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @06:21AM (#18335199)
Sadly, I think this is right. The "fix" involves one group of people telling another group of people what to do. That never goes over without a fight. Especially when it will involve land, life and death, and reproductive rights.

I think what we're seeing with government's moving more right wing is the first step of this. These people are already operating on this assumption and plan on being the ones doing the telling.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by trentnix on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:37AM (#18335916)
It's a shame you've been downvoted on this point, and it's more evidence Hacker News is becoming more like Ars: upvotes are votes of agreement as opposed to votes that you providing insight.

And your comment is not only extremely insightful, it is exactly right - the current global political climate is a populist reaction by people tiring of being told by elites what they should and should not have and what they should and should not believe.

All of the fixes being proposed are, if we are honest, some form of rationing or another. That will necessarily reduce the quality of life of a large group of people, and they won't accept that no matter how strongly bureaucrats insist they should.

So such insistence will need to be backed by force, because it will be resisted by force.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by nprateem on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:16AM (#18336143)
> All of the fixes being proposed are, if we are honest, some form of rationing or another. That will necessarily reduce the quality of life of a large group of people, and they won't accept that no matter how strongly bureaucrats insist they should.

I'm not sure this is true. It used to be socially acceptable to smoke in offices and inside, but attitudes changed. Now fewer and fewer people smoke tobacco in the UK at least. Even drinking is seen as uncool, with around 20% of 18-24 year olds saying they don't drink at all IIRC. I think a similar change in attitude could occur so people make ecologically-minded decisions.

A few ideas I've heard that I agree with are also:

* The Earth and ecosystem should have legal rights and be legally represented & defended in courts to oppose industries like e.g. fracking/mining/deforestation, etc., not as an after thought, but in terms that the Earth is its own legal entity and therefore ultimately owns itself and major industry would require approval from a group of trustees acting on behalf of the Earth.

* Companies should be legally responsible for putting the environment before shareholder profits (i.e. not be run for the benefit of shareholder, but for the benefit of the environment)

* Governments should pay people to keep trees on their land - not just landowners, but people who would fell the land. Maybe this would be some combination based on land ownership/licencing rights (e.g. tenancy) and universal basic income. This would probably need to be an international effort because e.g. we all benefit from the South American rainforests, not just people who live in close proximity to them.

It won't be simple to decide how to implement the above ideas, but we need to value the environment far more instead of just unsustainably stripping resources so a few people can make a fast buck. The idea that just because you own some land (or it's the commons) that you can do whatever you want with it needs to end. But whatever we decide, it is clear we need widespread, dramatic, global changes in our behaviour now.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by kaybe on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:24AM (#18336201)
There is one tree that owns itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_That_Owns_Itself

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by tomhoward on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @08:37AM (#18345123)
> more evidence Hacker News is becoming more like Ars: upvotes are votes of agreement as opposed to votes that you providing insight

At the time I'm reading this comment, the parent is not downvoted. The guidelines ask you not to obsess about downvoting in comments, because it's boring/repetitive, and often turns about to be moot, when the comment ends up being voted back into the black, which is often the case.

Re:Humanity has wiped out 60% of animals since 1970, major r... by kiliantics on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:17PM (#18342377)
This is why people should support popular movements that are resisting the right wing and resisting unsustainable practices. Unions and social justice activists are our best hope for a decent future without extreme repression. But they get labeled as antifa or eco-terrorists and arrested or otherwise silenced.