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Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by rococode on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:25AM (#18254230)
I was at a talk last week given by a startup founder and he said something similar that went along these lines:

The bigger the company, the smaller your role's coverage. You get well-compensated and aren't worked too hard, but your job might effectively be "you're responsible for these two screens of this one component of this particular application". The conflict is that the bigger the company, the higher the bar for entry. So you end up with a bunch of really bright, challenge-loving people cooped up working day in day out on very specific cogs of the giant machine, and that's not an ideal lifestyle for all of those people.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by virgilp on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:19AM (#18254557)
One of my colleagues complained a while ago to management that "you hire brain surgeons and put them to work to peel potatoes". Quite a poetic way to express the same idea, I'd say :D
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by geezerjay on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:56AM (#18255228)
I had a colleague of mine complain to management that their hiring process looked for Ferraris but once someone joined the company they would bolt on a plow to that Ferrari and expected it to deliver acres of plowed fields.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by Mvandenbergh on Friday October 19, 2018 @05:53AM (#18255467)
More a task for a Lamborghini than a Ferrari I would think.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by ido on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:33AM (#18255625)
There literally are Ferrari tractors :)
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by aesh2Xa1 on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:09AM (#18255786)
Lamborghini began as a tractor company, so I think the joke is pointing towards history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Trattori
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by BeetleB on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:25AM (#18257343)
>One of my colleagues complained a while ago to management that "you hire brain surgeons and put them to work to peel potatoes".

I work in one of the top tech companies that is not FAANG, and the sentiment is the same. They hire only PhDs for a big chunk of the company and they pay relatively well - most of the people who complain about this cannot get a better paying job.

A friend of mine even said to his boss 6 months after he was hired "Why did you hire a PhD like me for this job? This work is not even close to requiring a PhD".

While I feel for him, my counter is "OK. Where would you rather work where you will do work worthy of a PhD?" They'll usually name the same few places, and not realize that those places are already "full". And they all pay less.

The reality is that there are many more qualified people than positions for the interesting work. If my company decided that yes, you're right, we don't need to hire PhDs for the job and we'll just hire MS folks, then the very people complaining would be in another company, getting paid less, and complaining about the same thing.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by ilovecaching on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:36AM (#18254270)
That's not what's incentivized though. Getting in to a FAANG is just the first step. The next step is to actually show that you can affect more than just your two screens. That's why they work in constant review cycles. People who get frustrated are often the people who don't know how to affect more than their two screens. It's hard, because you're competing with other people who are equally or more brilliant. Although Google is big enough now that we can demote brilliant to fairly intelligent I think.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by grey-area on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:57AM (#18254487)
But you're not competing with those brilliant people on technical merit, but in the political game of building a fiefdom in a large company. That takes very different skills, and many people find it distastful.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by tpurves on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:27AM (#18254582)
Some might be surprised at what are the most effective strategies in fifedom building and rising in a large org. It very often has much more about making deliberate choices to help those around you succeed, to actively recognize others and help others arond you sieze opportunities. And that kind of demonstrated leadership is what will propel your own rise in status within an organization. It’s a mistake, and will set you back to think of politics as a zero-sum game.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by baccheion on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:43AM (#18254640)
Advancing at Google (as a Software Engineer) involved getting lucky. In order to be promoted in 2010, you needed to be responsible for a relevant part of a valuable project (in the eyes of executives and other Engineers) that succeeds. During many cycles, it was clear if a promotion or raise would be possible before work even began. As loyalty is rewarded, it also tended to be wiser to stick with one project/manager until leveled up.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by gowld on Friday October 19, 2018 @10:46AM (#18257057)
Yes, people are rewarded for being successful, and there is an element of luck in landing a good opportunity -- withing a company or at a different company. If you are on a bad project, move; don't expect to be rewarded for wasting your and everyone else's time and money. That's necessarily how it must be, or else everyone would get promoted for hiding out in a corner making beautiful useless things no one cares about, and there's be no money to pay for those promotions.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by grey-area on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:04AM (#18254943)
It's still building a fiefdom based on loyalty. You'll be competing with people who build loyalty in other, more negative ways - good doesn't always triumph, and I'd contend that in large orgs it rarely does. The pressures that come to bear as you rise will not push you to be good to those under you.

Politics does not have to be a zero sum game but often those who view it that way and are absolutely ruthless rise to the top. Perhaps that's just the human condition.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by BeetleB on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:36AM (#18257434)
>It’s a mistake, and will set you back to think of politics as a zero-sum game.

I think we have a bit of a meta-false-dichotomy here. I agree it's a mistake to think of it as a zero-sum game. I also would say it's a mistake to think your advice will reliably work.

I've often sat in career advice talks and they often give the same advice you gave. Invariably during Q/A someone will point out they followed that exact advice and got screwed. The responses by the panelist fall into two categories:

1. I don't believe it and there must be more to the story.

2. You're in a poor organization. I suggest you find a better place to work.

So yes, the advice is good, but only when it works :-)

As a company gets bigger, the likelihood of faulty incentives existing goes up. The likelihood that what's good for my team + boss is bad for the company goes up.

Personally, I don't have illusions. I've worked in jobs where the advice you gave won't work. And I side with the second answer. Instead of playing bad politics, it's just a lot better to find an organization that is worthy of me/you. The advice people who had been in the org gave me was consistently "Forget about what's good for the bigger picture and the company. Make your boss look good even if it's a bad solution and will waste others' time and money." I didn't follow that advice and I paid for it. At the same time, my time and effort is valuable - I'd rather use it for something better than this. Either I work to change the organization's culture, or I leave.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by crdoconnor on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:25AM (#18255590)
>It’s a mistake, and will set you back to think of politics as a zero-sum game.

It's a mistake to think that it's not a zero sum game.

If there are 5 people and one available spot for promotion, you can get selected by bolstering your appearance or by tearing the other 4 down. Either one works.

And yeah, the best tactic is usually "make my boss look good".

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by matwood on Friday October 19, 2018 @08:25AM (#18256181)
> And yeah, the best tactic is usually "make my boss look good".

You say this like it's a bad thing. You should be making your boss, your team, and your teammates look good. If you are doing those things, you are probably also making the company look good.

It's thinking about the long vs. short term. Focusing only on your own optics may work okay in the short term, but they cap out fairly quickly.

Think about how it looks from the outside. Employee A is only focused on themselves. It is recognized that A is good, but any team A is on still struggles. Employee B makes the whole team look good. It becomes recognized that B not only does well, but any team B ends up on does well. Who do you think advances the farthest long term?

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by crdoconnor on Friday October 19, 2018 @08:55AM (#18256361)
And just like that, the just world fallacy kicks in :)

I certainly don't think it's a bad thing to make your teammates look good, but in general it's more effective to give the lion's share of the credit to the boss rather than them. And credit is a limited resource.

I say that like it's a bad thing because it kind of is.

I believe there are some companies where coworkers rather than management decide promotions and this tactic would not work but they are few and far between.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by matwood on Friday October 19, 2018 @03:23PM (#18259245)
Since you're talking about 'credit' you have completely missed the point. I'm talking about making the whole team look good by making them better. That means helping team members get better. That means helping your boss get better. If the whole team looks good, guess who benefits the most from that? Your boss. And, who cares who decides promotions. If every team you end up on becomes great, you will end up where you want to be.

This also has nothing to do with a just world fallacy. This is thinking long term. Rarely can someone politic all the way to the top. In order to lead, you need the support of your team. You get that by being a great team member yourself.

/rant

Finally, I'm tired of hearing how awesome people are, but their team sucks or their boss sucks (doubly so for people working at FAANG, because the low bar is so much higher). If they are so awesome, then get out there and help the team improve. Instead it's I'm so smart, but everyone is holding me back. I'm stuck on a crappy team, etc... Grow up.

/rant over

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by zaphar on Friday October 19, 2018 @09:13AM (#18256464)
Google, as far as I know, is still one of those places where your coworkers provide the feedback that goes into your promotion.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by hknd on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:04AM (#18254942)
That might be true for a small percentage of projects/teams.

If you want to succeed as a SWE at a FAANG company you'll have to be an exceptional engineer, or have other skills (leadership, pm, ...). You can't just weasle up the ladder by playing "political games".

Though, most of my colleagues don't even care about their career - most of us just want to work on cool projects which immediately affect billions of people.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by gowld on Friday October 19, 2018 @10:48AM (#18257071)
You can weasel up the ladder by getting help but not giving help, taking credit for other people's work, and mortgaging other people's future to get your product launched today.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by basejumping on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:28AM (#18254415)
From what I hear it's turning fairly intelligent to asshole
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by hknd on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:05AM (#18254954)
99% of people within FAANG are the most friendly people ever. E.g. for Google not being a dick is a hiring criteria (Googleyness).
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by borroka on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:48AM (#18255179)
> 99% of people within FAANG are the most friendly people ever

I worked at one the FAANG and I found in my team and some of the neighboring teams the most insecure, unfriendly, back-stabbing, conspiratorial bunch of technically semi-competent losers I ever had the displeasure of working with. Other people were competent, trustworthy, confident in themselves and thus enjoyable.

I also interviewed at other FAANGs and maybe the interviewers were all wonderful people, but I had a mixed experience. Some appeared to be ok, some definitely not. Very different experience from the parent's.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by badpun on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:29AM (#18255893)
> I worked at one the FAANG and I found in my team and some of the neighboring teams the most insecure, unfriendly, back-stabbing, conspiratorial bunch of technically semi-competent losers I ever had the displeasure of working with.

I think a lot of people would enjoy a blog post elaborating on that experience (possibly under a pseudonym to protect you from vengeance).

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by borroka on Friday October 19, 2018 @10:16AM (#18256869)
I will, anonymously, in a few months. It's going to be good fun, both for the readers and for me.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by hnaccy on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:23AM (#18255043)
>for Google not being a dick is a hiring criteria

Wonder what the false negative rate is?

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by ry_ry on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:40AM (#18255129)
Probably quite high.

Google's culture and hiring process is so well documented at this point, I suspect any suitably talented individual could appropriate some cultural fit.

Of the (current and former) googlers I know personally, they are a mixed bag but there are some traits that are more common. Self assurance and the uncanny ability to never be seen to be demonstrably incorrect are prevalent tbh - but that applies equally to most of the industry.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by pvarangot on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:33AM (#18257415)
> the uncanny ability to never be seen to be demonstrably incorrect

I think that may be very easy to do, just state that everything you say is just a theory or your opinion... but this is just a theory.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by hknd on Friday October 19, 2018 @05:14AM (#18255322)
I'm an interview at a FAANG company, and I did and will reject people if I have the feeling that they are not a cultural fit. (e.g. being a dick, arrogant, ...)
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by baccheion on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:44AM (#18254641)
Google has been riddled with a--holes since at least 2010.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by tonyedgecombe on Friday October 19, 2018 @10:45AM (#18257045)
To be honest our whole industry has more than its fair share.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by shanghaiaway on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:32AM (#18254253)
"Product Manager, Friend List at Facebook"
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by utdiscant on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:08AM (#18255531)
"The conflict is that the bigger the company, the higher the bar for entry." is that true? I would think that the bar to get in is lowered as you need more and more people. Of course, some institutions like Google manage to make a good branding effort and attract talent, but becoming an early engineer in a successful small startup requires you to be extremely smart too.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by ido on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:36AM (#18255640)
Google can afford to pay better, relocate people from all over the world & is prestigious.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by not_real_acct on Friday October 19, 2018 @08:29PM (#18261030)
The smartest dude on my team was hired by Google a year ago. On my team, he was a subject matter expert and he routinely contributed to open source projects.

Google hired him to be a salesperson.

I definitely wonder if he could be happy in that role. I understand that it's important to have technically adept salespeople, but I can't see him being happy in that long term.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by sjg007 on Friday October 19, 2018 @09:13PM (#18261151)
If you can get commissions then it can be lucrative.