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Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by dang on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @12:10AM (#18173277)
Please keep nationalistic and political flamewar off HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by alphakappa on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:15AM (#18165652)
The country is more than its government. If you’ve been to Istanbul, you would know that it’s a wonderful place. Should we shun the country and its people because they have been burdened with a bad ruler? We should look in a mirror first before passing such harsh judgment.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:03AM (#18165977)
If you're doing business in a country then rule of law is extremely important. Your life and freedom may depend on it.

No matter where your customers are, you are subject to (at the very least) tax and social security regulations of the country you live in.

Rather than looking in the mirror I would suggest looking at:

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank

http://www.doingbusiness.org/en/doingbusiness

As a foreigner you cannot do as the locals do when it comes to corruption (even if you wanted to) or you're going to have a target on your back.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by distances on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:33AM (#18165763)
> Should we shun the country and its people because they have been burdened with a bad ruler?

You don't need to shun the people even if you shun the country.

I feel it's already very widespread to avoid any visits to Turkey and Russia (among others obviously), though it's hard to say how much of it is because of the political situation, and how much because of perceived instability. Personally, I would like to see Hagia Sophia but I'm unlikely to visit as long as Turkey stays in the current dictatorial road.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by alphakappa on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:23AM (#18166077)
You should absolutely visit and see Hagia Sofia. It’s too good to miss out in this limited lifetime of ours.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by distances on Monday October 08, 2018 @03:09PM (#18170346)
I hopefully still have plenty of time left, and there are lots of other things to see in this world meanwhile. At some point, I'm sure!
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by xyproto on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:46AM (#18165871)
This was in the context of having "an intellectual atmosphere", though.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by cies on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:26AM (#18165337)
It's okay to mention this, but not fair to omit comparison with the US while the two were originally compared.

The scale may be different, but the situation in the US is not to good either on these topics, and has been deteriorating lately.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by jjeaff on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:43AM (#18165434)
I'm not aware of any journalists or political opponents being arrested or tortured in the US.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by kragen on Monday October 08, 2018 @01:58PM (#18169715)
You may have heard of Aaron Swartz, "Lock Her Up", Barrett Brown, and https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-peopl..., Mumia Abu-Jamal, etc., but presumably you have forgotten. The situation in the US is not as bad as in Turkey, but it is bad and getting worse.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by DoreenMichele on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:38AM (#18165802)
6 more journalists arrested in Ferguson protests

A total of 11 journalists have been arrested during the protests in Ferguson

Most were only held briefly, not charged

German reporter says he's never been treated so badly by police

https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-journalists-arr...

I saw something once that credibly argued that the treatment of Chelsea Manning in prison amounted to torture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

The current president of the US has called for his political opponent to be jailed. Not readily finding actual instances of actually jailing political opponents in the US, but I'm not trying that hard either.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/2/1729104/-Donald-Trum...

We also generally treat Blacks and Natives terribly and generally have crazy high rates of incarceration.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by def_true_false on Monday October 08, 2018 @09:12AM (#18167057)
The scale is hardly comparable to the recent purges, arrests, etc in Turkey.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by DoreenMichele on Monday October 08, 2018 @12:08PM (#18168655)
I didn't claim it was. But the comment I replied to unequivocally suggests this happens at a rate of Zero in the US, which is not accurate. Yet most folks are happy to act like it is accurate while my very mild and data backed comment gets push back of various sorts.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by jjeaff on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @11:55AM (#18186101)
Yes, people have been arrested, who happen to be journalists. But no one in the US has been arrested for being a journalist or reporting things that are uncomfortable for leaders. You are making a false equivalency.

Ferguson protests were dangerous and riotous at times. Sure, some people were arrested that shouldn't have been, but they were released. This isn't even comparable to the kinds of journalist arrests and murders we are talking about.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by pbhjpbhj on Monday October 08, 2018 @09:46AM (#18167354)
You're really stretching things to force a weak comparison.

Journalists entrenched in violent protests will inevitably get arrested, that's not a break down of rule of law, nor of democracy; are they getting imprisoned for being journalists who are critical of the president? Not AFAICT. In Turkey journalists are imprisoned for not supporting Erdogan.

Has Trump called for his opponents to be imprisoned for not supporting him? Or, did he claim they had committed crimes for which objectively they should be punished? Erdogan has his political opponents actually imprisoned; and 10s of thousands of their supporters.

Trump is a whacked out crazy misogynist, displays the worst traits of capitalist greed, and of self-obsession, he's a power hungry ignoramus. But Erdogan is an evil genocidal fascist.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by DoreenMichele on Monday October 08, 2018 @12:04PM (#18168628)
I'm not stretching anything, nor am I forcing any kind of comparison whatsoever. I'm merely posting readily available data that the comment I replied to dismissed as not existing at all. It had zero qualifiers and made a sweeping statement that is readily falsiable.
[deleted]
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by isostatic on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:44AM (#18165860)
The US is going downhill quickly, and I wouldn't advise anyone to move there.

However it's still a long way away from countries like Turkey or Uzbekistan or Russia.

Compare the US to Brazil or South Africa sure, point out how it's no longer in the same bracket as Canada or Denmark or NZ, but comparing to Turkey or Thailand does a disservice.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:18AM (#18166041)
It's really not far from Turkey. I agree it's not "as bad", but the US isn't done rotting. Populism, attacking and discrediting the press, running state media (FOX), control over all branches of government, a blind, rabid and xenophobic fanbase...

Like, yeah, Turkey is worse. I think. I'm not even sure, given that Turkey has less power. So no, it's not at that level. Yet.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:52AM (#18166219)
What's important though is to compare the whole system and not just individuals. The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law.

Trump's inclination to reduce everything to ass kissing ("has said nice things about me") and personal vendettas would be an absolute disaster in many countries. But the US is healthy enough to survive him - I think.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @07:07AM (#18166285)
> The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law.

Does it. A first-past-the-post system which reduces everything to two parties. Low voter turnouts. High gerrymandering. Terrible voter accessibility laws. Three branches of government end-to-end owned by only one party. And a ton of money in politics thanks to Citizens United.

I'm sorry, but "robust democratic institutions" and "checks and balances" at this point are things americans tell themselves to sleep better at night. If you step back, you start seeing just how far gone the country is.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 08, 2018 @07:16AM (#18166340)
In terms of keeping one person in check, even if that person is the president, the US constitution does a great job. And this is very much borne out by what has happened since Trump was elected (by a minority of voters).

(I'm not American)

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @07:28AM (#18166403)
The constitution is a document, not a branch of the government. Who amends the constitution? Who enforces the constitution? The answer to both of those is: Branches of government controlled by the same single party as the one in power right now.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 08, 2018 @09:31AM (#18167211)
These are very baffling claims that lack any relation to reality. The US constitution defines the branches of government according to the principles of seperation of powers.

The constitution also defines the process of changing the constitution itself (article V), and it does not include a way for Mr Trump or his party to do that as they do not have the required two thirds majority in both houses or in state legislatures.

Importantly, there isn't even a way for him to whip up emotions in a referendum in order to change the constitution.

The judiciary is not controlled by any party at all. Supreme court judges are appointed for life to prevent arbitrary interventions by other branches of government.

And in practical terms, did you really get the impression that Trump has unwavering support even just among the legislators of his own party? Did you get the impression that the FBI acts on Trump's say so? How about the courts?

No, what I'm seeing is a wannabe autocrat who is kept in check by an extremely robust set of institutions, constitutional arrangements and by a lot of principled individuals inside those institutions.

I don't see Xi, Erdogan or Putin getting investigated by their own police or courts, having to fear impeachment or face the sort of (well deserved) journalistic onslaught that Trump has had to face.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @09:51AM (#18167410)
This reply goes back to the general sentiment I have a problem with: That things have to be as bad as in Russia, China or Turkey for people to take action.

You realize that if they get this bad, it's too late to take action, right?

Here's the same logic, applied to a different field: "Oh, yes, you keep talking about climate change but I only see mild temperature increases and I'm not even sure they're man-made. I don't see the sea level rise and catastrophic outcomes you're talking about. If we start seeing those, we'll take action."

It'll be too late.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 08, 2018 @10:00AM (#18167488)
I don't find Trump harmless. I'm just saying that the constitution and the institutions matter a great deal when it comes to limiting the damage a single powerful individual can do.

That's exactly why so many autocrats and parties with an authoritarian bent try to change the constitutions of their countries in order to give themselves greater powers.

Trump hasn't done that because he can't. And I think this deserves far more attention than it is getting. It is something other countries can learn from.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by i_am_nomad on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:38AM (#18165805)
You are wrong about White House press access; the current President has been far more open and accessible than his predecessor.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:14AM (#18166025)
https://apnews.com/f29a23df19214466b226e2cbdec78cbd - AP (As neutral as it gets) - White House press conferences grow rare

https://apnews.com/0a029f0bf678452aa89facb6dfba5f25 - AP - WH restricts AP, Reuters, Bloomberg for KJU summit

http://time.com/5270968/donald-trump-reporters-credentials-m... - TIME, Donald Trump threatens taking away reporter credentials

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/09/donald-trump... - The Guardian - White House won't rule out banning press for 'negative' coverage

Just a couple of examples of what white house press feels like under the Trump era. Talk to me more about "his predecessor".

Edit: Today's bonus article on freedom of speech, press, and assembly: https://outline.com/3TKY5M - CNN - DOJ demands Facebook information from 'anti-administration activists'.

There's like one of these every day at least. So, you know, I don't believe you.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by wrs on Monday October 08, 2018 @08:55AM (#18166951)
To be fair, thanks to Twitter we do have much more access than before to his unfiltered stream of consciousness at 3AM.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by scrollaway on Monday October 08, 2018 @09:48AM (#18167371)
For what it's worth, I think that is one of the very, very, very few good things that will come out of that presidency. We'll see what future presidents make of it, but I have hope that in the long run it leads to increased transparency.

Of course, other checks are being removed left and right, so I don't think it evens out in the case of the Trump admin.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by wrs on Monday October 08, 2018 @02:51PM (#18170203)
I don’t think this kind of “transparency” is a good thing for any president. It is far better for the head of government to make considered, careful, well-timed statements with the benefit of staff research. You know, like normal governments have always worked...
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by BurnGpuBurn on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:14AM (#18165639)
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by dagw on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:22AM (#18165693)
Please don't do that. If you have a point to make or something to add, please do so. Having actually read the wikipedia page you linked to I'm still not entirely sure exactly which point you're trying to make.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by andrepd on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:45AM (#18165869)
Have you been to instanbul? I agree with everything you said, but a country and its people are more than their ruler.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by isostatic on Monday October 08, 2018 @07:50AM (#18166534)
Yes, and the people are lovely. I've also been to Russia, Egypt and Gaza, on many occasions, and the people are lovely there too. At least to me as a straight white man. I imagine if I was a gay woman I wouldn't feel the same.

I wouldn't move to any of those places though, partly because I don't want to support people like Hamas or Erdogan, and with the justice systems in these countries, that's what you're doing. Same if you set up shop in Colombia or Venezuela.

However it's also because of corrupt governments means I as a westerner am particularly vulnerable. Canada, New Zealand, Finland, Portugal, Japan, Argentina, sure, you'll be fine (ok maybe not Brits in Argentina).

If all you're doing is a backpacking gap year, and you're willing to get out of these fast, you're probably OK, but look at how quickly Istanbul turned during the attempted coup. Things can get very ugly, very quickly, or they can get very ugly in a boiling frog basis and you won't notice until it's too late. Neither is good.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:29AM (#18165349)
Isn't US do the same shady things? but they justify them so you can live in your own bubble believing that you are better than everyone else?
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by dagw on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:46AM (#18165455)
This sort of whataboutism is hardly helpful. Sure the US is no saint, but trying to equate them to what's happening in Turkey does a huge disservice to everyone suffering in Turkey and only helps whitewash a brutal dictator.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:35AM (#18165780)
he criticize turkey based on they leader as not good place for work but he overlooked that his country is considered mush worst and yes if Turkey has dictator USA has terrorist government that allow all kind of shit and misery to innocent people based on hate and racism.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by vertex-four on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:49AM (#18166203)
The US is not generally considered in a worse state than Turkey, saying this as a non-American who refuses to visit America.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @02:14PM (#18169849)
It doesn't matter what people think, the facts it what matter and if you decide to overlook them that is your problem.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by jjeaff on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:46AM (#18165450)
Arresting and torturing journalists and human rights workers? Nope, I don't think so.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by alphakappa on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:17AM (#18165662)
If you define that to be the particular metric, then no. Others may define different parameters to judge the badness of what a country has done. If you feel that the US has had saintly behavior towards its own citizens or the rest of the world, pick up a history book.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:40AM (#18165834)
Didn't US torture people at all? did you know what fucked up shit done by CIA? didn't they kill millions of innocents in stupid wars? oh i forget something you guys think your government is good because it put their people in bubble of safety while killing and torturing non Americans and supporting terrorists nations. and that all matter i live in peace but fuck everyone else.
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by v_lisivka on Monday October 08, 2018 @06:57AM (#18166247)
Rules of ware are very different from laws in peaceful country. Don't mix them, please.

For example, Russia bombs and shells cities in Europe and Africa, uses chemical weapons, bombs hospitals, torture and kills civilians in their own and even in other countries, supports terrorists, spread fake news, and so on. But you can find lot of intellectuals in Moscow.

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @02:13PM (#18169832)
So it's ok to kill other people but not yours?
Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by buboard on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:38AM (#18165404)
> the same shady things

In one word, no

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by isostatic on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:50AM (#18165481)
Indeed. The U.S. has tons of problems - more than most western countries, and I wouldn't live there, but it's nowhere near the problems of Turkey, which is down towards places like China and Khazakstan on the repressive regime list

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-... is a good starting point

Re:Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atm... by afroboy on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:32AM (#18165757)
To other nations which they were mush worst. and more evil.