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Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by grezql on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:24AM (#18155266)
They have done this in other european cities too. But maybe not in the same territory scale.

I have lived downtown for 2 years myself and oppose this ridiculous "environment"-protection move.

Its very anti-social to ban traffic from urban areas. Technology and evolution should create opportunities and positive changes for people, not take away their rights!

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by NeedMoreTea on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:53AM (#18155420)
It's very anti-social to permit the thing that more than any other makes a city noisy, dirty, polluted, smelly, health impacting, interferes with everyone's quality of life, and takes an absurdly selfish amount of space (1 person in a 5 or more seat car - the usual).

Get rid of all of them, enable adequate public transport, add a whole load of trees, calming and removal of signage and markings. Then give priority to the pedestrian, bike, and perhaps limited motorbike before car.

Cities could be a nice place to live once again rather than somewhere to avoid.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by sonar_un on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:31AM (#18155616)
I absolutely agree. I've spent significant time in Madrid and also in other cities that are starting to ban cars like Paris. Getting rid of these machines is better for everyone. Paris is now even contemplating giving the metro away for free. This is a much more efficient use of space and will increase the health and well-being of the citizens of these cities.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by cm2187 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:17AM (#18155542)
I am not sure what you mean by "once again". Are you suggesting that pre-car cities had no nuisance related to horse traffic?
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by NeedMoreTea on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:39AM (#18155654)
Seems there was a brief spell in the 30s, and early post-war prior to the UK eliminating so much bus, rail, and all trams there was a spell where everyone got OK quality of life in a city, before everyone owns a car. Before all the flyovers, dual carriageways, urban motorways and junction prioritisation of cars.

That said, I feel no cars at all is the ideal we should aim for, and build our roads for - with the necessary investment in public transport.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by majewsky on Saturday October 06, 2018 @02:53PM (#18156623)
As much as I'm advocating for public transit (heavy user myself, don't have a driver's license), "no cars" is a very unrealistic ideal. If I had to propose a rule, it would be something like "no privately-owned cars". Even in an ideal scenario, you still need car lanes everywhere for:

- ambulances and fire engines

- trucks that deliver goods to inner-city shops

- moving vans

- vans of craftsmen

- etc.

Also, there should still be some form of carsharing for when families go grocery-shopping, or when I buy a sofa and need to haul it home.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by NeedMoreTea on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:32PM (#18156808)
Perhaps I'd have better phrased it as no more priority for vehicles first, but it's the ideal or the vision. Every country will have the more spaced rural communities where eliminating personal transport probably won't work. As a human I'd like the vision to be humans first.

Sticking with cities, all of your points can be achieved designing roads for no cars and pedestrians everywhere. We already do it to a limited degree in the pedestrianised urban centres - which still permit emergency services. Deliveries to shops and tradesmen are often restricted to specific time ranges only. Barriers at the periphery enforce time or permit access. More space for pavement cafes, planting, but keep a single lane for the few trucks, emergency, even taxis in some places.

You can also see it with "shared space" becoming more common in residential areas. I think it was a Dutch idea, sometimes called "naked streets" depending where in the world you are. That's removal of all lights and markings from junctions and streets, sometimes combined with calming features to ruin line of sight, maybe by planting trees, or insert slaloms. That results in kids able to play out, or pedestrians walking in the middle of the street, and crossing wherever they like. The driver becomes no more important than the foot traffic, and they have to pay far more attention, especially at junctions. Still lets all traffic in, just vehicles no longer get to come first in a set lane that pedestrians feel excluded from.

Comes down to where we place priority. Seems pretty clear the 60s post-war ideal of Brutalism, walkways in the sky and expressways of cars, but no buses and trams, while gaining longer commuting distances everywhere was absurdly anti-human.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by the_clarence on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:36AM (#18155329)
In Europe most people do not drive in the cities. How is that anti social? On the contrary cars are hated: they contribute to noise pollution, real pollution, accidents, etc. They take space and breaks paths for pedestrians, scooters, bikes, etc.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:51AM (#18155727)
In Europe most people do not drive in the cities.

That's quite a generalisation. People in major cities like London and Paris would obviously like to clean up the pollution and reduce the noise and disruption, but the simple fact is that the existing public transport systems are not even close to having enough capacity to replace private motor transport entirely, and there zero chance of them having it any time soon. And those are the ideal cases, where there is enough demand to make a reasonably efficient and close-to-24/7 public transport network viable. Those in smaller cities have much worse options in terms of efficiency, availability and reliability, as do those travelling between or outside the bigger cities.

You can't just ban cars to fix this, or price them off the roads with congestion charging or the equivalent. It would take a huge programme of investment in developing new mass transit alternatives and redesigning large parts of the overall transport infrastructure within cities to make forcible elimination of cars in favour of public transport a viable option, and any such plan would probably have to be implemented over a 50-100 year timescale, with those footing much of the bill never living to see the benefits. That's a tough sell for any political administration.

I personally think that making private transport less intrusive and damaging has far more potential to improve the situation in the short to medium term. Infrastructure for electric vehicles is one obvious move in the right direction, but more generally, our road systems are still designed around the idea that one person making a journey with limited cargo needs a car-sized vehicle, which is horribly wasteful in road space, parking space, fuel consumption, etc. We have some very basic infrastructure in cities these days for bikes and we make some allowances for motorbikes, but these modes of transport have serious downsides for a lot of people. Crucially, the changes needed to improve those downsides would also allow, for example, smaller electric vehicles that are still fully enclosed and having space for carrying small loads in addition to their human occupant. Combine that with increasing automation over the next couple of decades for better safety and general efficiency, and most of us might at least still be alive to see the benefits.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by buckminster on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:38PM (#18155933)
You don't need new light rail networks. You've already got the roads so you start with buses. If cars were banned the bus companies would have no shortage of revenue. This could be done in a year, not 50.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:38PM (#18156284)
The local authorities have been trying something resembling that strategy near me in Cambridge for years. It doesn't work. Even serious research commissioned by the local council a long time ago said it couldn't possibly achieve anything like the stated goals, yet they persist in the folly.

It turns out that buses need effective interchanges to provide anything resembling useful connections. Those require a lot of space for the venue itself that typically is not available. They also require extremely high connectivity into and out of that venue, which is typically not how existing roads are configured.

It also turns out that buses block up normal-width two-lane roads every time they stop. The amount of interference between just the buses themselves grows far faster than the number of buses on the road, because it is very difficult for them to pass each other when one is at a stop. They similarly cause obstructions to other road users in large motorised vehicles, including delivery vehicles and emergency services. And they force smaller, less visible and more vulnerable road users like cyclists, motorcyclists and crossing pedestrians into relatively dangerous situations when passing or crossing near them.

Buses are efficient in terms of fuel/environmental considerations only in situations where there is a critical mass of passengers wanting to travel on the same route at the same time, which you do have in big cities like London and Paris, but don't in smaller ones. That leads to either having little or no service where there is less demand or running large vehicles that are actually less efficient than smaller private transport on a lot of routes outside of peak times.

Bus journeys are inevitably very slow compared to private transport, because of the circuitous routes, frequent stops, large and slow vehicles, and often some extra time walking to and from the stop at each end of the journey. A typical journey by bus can easily take 2-4x as long as it would by car and may be little faster than walking and much slower than cycling at congested times.

Buses lack flexibility, particularly for passengers carrying large amounts of baggage, unwieldy items like pushchairs, or themselves disabled and travelling with equipment like wheelchairs. Often there is not enough space on the bus if more than one or two people with extra things with them want to travel at once, and stories of people having to wait two or even three buses before they could get on are not unusual.

Buses are horribly unhygienic compared to any form of private transportation, particularly in colder months when often there is little ventilation and lots of passengers generously sharing all of their bugs with everyone else aboard.

Buses are less comfortable than almost any form of private transportation.

Basically, buses suck. They may be somewhat more space and fuel efficient under ideal conditions, which often do not exist, and what advantages they do have in those respects are often mitigated or cancelled out by their numerous downsides. Almost any imaginable transport system, public or private, from simple walking and cycling to high-tech underground metro systems, is better than buses. Buses are awful.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by etiennemarcel on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:19AM (#18159639)
> public transport systems are not even close to having enough capacity to replace private motor transport entirely, and there zero chance of them having it any time soon.

Paris is currently building more than 200km of subway (between now and 2030), a new suburban train line (RER E), 4 new tramway lines...

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Silhouette on Sunday October 07, 2018 @10:30AM (#18160703)
It's true that the French seem to be doing much better on this than we Brits are, but even so, the existing Paris metro is so over-subscribed much of the time that multiple new lines might still only be enough to make things more tolerable for the people who already travel that way. Getting everyone out of all those cars and onto public transport as well is an even harder problem, and it's an exceptionally difficult one to solve when you're working underneath big, established cities with a lot of history like London and Paris. In London we're only building one major new line at the moment, but some of the engineering they've had to do to make that line fit and to avoid disrupting daily life above and damaging important historical buildings during the tunnelling and construction work is remarkable.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Al-Khwarizmi on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:41PM (#18156300)
the simple fact is that the existing public transport systems are not even close to having enough capacity to replace private motor transport entirely, and there zero chance of them having it any time soon (...) you can't just ban cars to fix this, or price them off the roads with congestion charging or the equivalent.

The reasons why existing public transport systems don't have enough capacity to serve everyone is that (1) under the dominant hypercapitalistic ideology, public transport is often seen as something that has to be economically profitable, or at least break even, and not as a right (as you can always take your car); and (2) it is hard for it to be economically profitable, or at least break even, when it has to compete with the convenience of the car (which is effectively subsidized), apart from competing for space.

If cars were banned, public transport would improve by leaps and bounds by simple market force. There would be much more demand and it would be much easier to make it profitable (and there would be a case to run it with taxpayer money even where it weren't profitable. With the savings on buying cars and gas, we could very well pay that).

In the 1920s, my city had about 80K people and there was a tram line to a town about 15 km away, which had 7K people. It was operated by a private company, and was profitable. It was removed when cars became popular. Now, my city has around 250K people, the other town has 15K people, more proportion of people work and thus need to commute, my country and area are much richer and prosperous than back then, but no one would even dream of building a tram line like that. It would be considered pharaonic, unprofitable, etc. Why something that was possible almost 100 years ago, with less resources and worse technology, cannot be done now? Because there are cars.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:58PM (#18156374)
Unfortunately, it turns out that if cars are significantly restricted or banned as you suggest, what actually happens is that drivers simply go to other places. Businesses in places where it's difficult to get to work find it harder to recruit staff. Shops and commercial premises that are difficult for customers to reach lose revenue. Communities that are hostile towards visitors become less popular.

I do agree with you that it would require a radical change in the funding model for public transport to successfully replace cars with a much larger-scale version of existing public transport infrastructure, but as I noted before, that would probably be prohibitively difficult politically in most places today. I think there are much more realistic alternatives, as discussed in some of my other comments here, that we could work towards over perhaps a 10-20 year time frame instead of more like 50-100.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by skh on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:28AM (#18155289)
It seems to me encouraging pedestrians makes things more social. Everyone driving in their own car seems a lot less social to me. Can you elaborate on why this is anti social?
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by grezql on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:43AM (#18155371)
friends and families are discouraged when they realize they cannot drive home to me and park here. Instead they must spend 1 hour on train. This in turn increases isolation of people.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by tecleandor on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:58AM (#18155443)
During most of the day, driving to the center of Madrid is way, way slower than taking the train. The city is quite antisocial right now, full of people incapable of moving around the city due to a huge stream of cars occupying most of the space in the streets, but barely moving.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by KirinDave on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:12AM (#18155515)
Was the car faster? Is taking the train actually difficult?

I live in the US, in a state famous for requiring a car. I genuinely miss when I could take the train to work, and my family visits me less now that they have to drive into the city rather than park at a train terminal and ride transit in.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by CalRobert on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:35PM (#18155921)
Nobody can land a helicopter on my flat but I still have friends. Cars are about as practical in city centres.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by the_clarence on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:26AM (#18155595)
This is because you have a shitty public transport because your city focuses on cars.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by KirinDave on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:09AM (#18155502)
Unless you're implying this was done against the will of the majority of the citizenry who live there, I'm curious why you think an axiom "technology should create opportunities" should override the rights, freedoms and preferences of people there.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kareemsabri on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:25AM (#18155588)
Ever heard of tyranny of the majority?
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by frabbit on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:33AM (#18155629)
Isn't that when the car drivers get vast amounts of money spent on infrastructure so that they can inconvenience me?
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kareemsabri on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:46AM (#18155704)
Seems like a good example.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by KirinDave on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:40PM (#18157720)
Ah yes. I've heard this argument. It's pretty puerile.

Land, utilities and the environment aren't like human-made resources. They're finite. So there's some inevitable decision-making there. This may limit your absolute freedom, but no one promised you that anyways.

It seems to me like having a majority of residents and workers supporting an initiative for local civic planning has a lot more legitimate authority than, say, a national vote on the same subject. At some point, you have to accept being an outlier.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Puer on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:02AM (#18155466)
Driving is not a right. It's a privilege.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by iwwr on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:25AM (#18155592)
More like, mobility is a right. Areas without functional public transport still have to rely on cars.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by frabbit on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:40AM (#18155660)
Imagine if I proposed taxing people approximately $5000 extra a year and then insisting that in addition they took on an extra job of being a chauffeur every morning and evening? And in addition I sequestered land and the sides of roads in order to store the vehicles which you needed to maintain, license, insure?

And in addition I would propose that approximately forty thousand people a year would be killed directly in vehicle collisions and that your children would be put in danger by you and your neighbors.

It is possible that you are talking about one of the very rare (and ever decreasing) rural areas which simply does not have enough population density to make public transport viable. But, we will worry about that after the dense suburbs, exurbs and downtowns have a modern transport system.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by eeZah7Ux on Saturday October 06, 2018 @02:44PM (#18156582)
> mobility is a right

Spot on - and societies obsessed with cars effectively deny that right to people who cannot drive or cannot afford a car.