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Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by fonnat on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:43AM (#18154462)
This is what happens when you stop paying for QA and want your end users to do the work for you.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by anonymfus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:25AM (#18154578)
> want your end users to do the work for you

They don't: they skipped release preview step this time.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by lostmsu on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:49AM (#18155397)
That's even worse, because they rolled this to non-RP users straight away. Though I must admit I never saw it in the updates list.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by DaiPlusPlus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:22PM (#18156769)
It's worse than that: my files were deleted as Windows Update downloaded the files before it even asked me if I wanted to install the update. I never even had a chance.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by anticensor on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:55PM (#18156952)
Current branch is the release preview.

They just want everyone to start at square one.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by byte1918 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:48AM (#18154473)
You can apply this statement to every software bug, probably ever.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by fonnat on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:49AM (#18154479)
No, I only apply it to companies that have dropped all QA and are having users test their software. (In this case, Microsoft and the Insider programme.)
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by kyberias on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:21PM (#18156765)
Your statement is not true. Microsoft hasn't "dropped all QA".
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by johnchristopher on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:56AM (#18154496)
Somehow I don't see an `apt-get update` deleting user files. User config files, maybe. But not documents.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by jeroenhd on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:59AM (#18154505)
Depends on how competent the package maintainers are/remain. You might just be one script bug away from wiping random files (https://www.slashgear.com/steam-on-linux-bug-can-delete-all-...)
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by johnchristopher on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:08AM (#18154941)
Yike. I had forgotten about that one.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:45AM (#18154865)
The need for safe, robust updates and dependency management is a pressing issue of our time, and it's a tough problem to solve. While the Debian systems I use have proved to be impressively reliable, in particular never causing any sort of failure with their unattended upgrades in many years, that is unfortunately the exception rather than the rule.

Windows updates in previous versions have caused more downtime for my businesses than any other sort of technical failure. Sometimes that has included data loss.

Package managers for various programming languages are another recurring source of danger. They often have debatable architecture with limited security and sandboxing functionality, sometimes allowing any rogue package's installation script to damage the system or cause data loss.

Apple's style with iOS updates seems to favour bricking old (or not so old) devices or crippling reductions in performance over data loss, but they still have a pretty bad track record, and they still rely on a ratchet-style update system where you can't easily go back if something does break.

I still find it baffling that in 2018 we retain so much emphasis on things like complicated filesystems, applications built on top of shared libraries and dynamic linking, and complicated plug-in based architectures. There are remarkably few good arguments for these fragile, risky, over-complicated strategies on modern systems. It's just momentum, but the collective cost to society from all the things that break as a result (and worse, break but can't then easily be fixed again) must be staggering.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Kostic on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:35PM (#18156821)
Fedora Silverblue (previously Fedora Atomic Workstation) provides some interesting solutions[0] for the issue you mention in the first paragraph.

[0] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/#_wha...

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by hocuspocus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:01AM (#18154686)
I've been using Windows 10 since the beginning and I believe it's the best desktop OS out there (I use Ubuntu at work and I have a Macbook Air too, I can compare).

However, I'm getting a bit tired of the overall poor quality of the biyearly updates. There's always one machine (either my main workstation or one belonging to my close relatives) where it'll miserably fail. The error messages and logs are completely unhelpful and so is whatever you'll find on the Microsoft Community website. In the end, I'm sure I'm going to have to reinstall at least one Windows cleanly, every six months.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:05AM (#18155479)
Microsoft laid off nearly all of its QA staff company-wide in 2014. From https://www.zdnet.com/article/beyond-12500-former-nokia-empl..., "Under the new structure, a number of Windows engineers, primarily dedicated testers, will no longer be needed. "
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by DoofusOfDeath on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:14PM (#18156724)
I'm curious what the impact was in terms of actual loss-of-quality vs. dollars saved.

I would guess that for a company as wealthy as Microsoft, the reputational damage to its flagship product would far outweigh any money saved.

But perhaps I'm just wrong about how the market works. If nothing else, reliability concerns are just one reason I'm avoiding Windows 10. (The other primary reason being Microsoft's potential snooping.)

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:26PM (#18156789)
Well, their stock nearly tripled since 2014 and they passed Alphabet/Google in valuation early this year, so...
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by wgerard on Saturday October 06, 2018 @04:00PM (#18156969)
Eh, I imagine that mostly has to do with Ballmer stepping down and not about slashing expenses.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by lousken on Saturday October 06, 2018 @02:55PM (#18156633)
whoever approved this decision needs to be fired
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by pletnes on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:10AM (#18154722)
In what way is windows 10 then the best OS? An OS that keeps breaking by updates is pretty much the worst OS by my standards. At work about 30% of computers have been reinstalled due to windows update failures over a year or so. Pretty awful if you ask me. Oh, and no problems with our ubuntu machines.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by hunta2097 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:16AM (#18154745)
I've always had a Linux partition and a Windows partition on my laptop.

Years ago I would end up drifting back into Windows.

However I haven't logged into Windows for a while now, and I'm considering deleting the partition.

When are Adobe and Autodesk going to support Linux properly? They are the only non-gaming reason for Windows now.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by pletnes on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:24AM (#18155584)
The unholy Word/excel/powerpoint trinity is what is keeping my win10 alive at work.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by r00fus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @04:10PM (#18157020)
More and more companies that I work with are shifting to google docs for better or for worse ...
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by vetinari on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:33PM (#18156811)
> When are Adobe and Autodesk going to support Linux properly?

When there will be a business case. That means, when there will be people willing to purchase Linux versions of Adobe/Autodesk/whatever apps, but not their Windows or Mac versions.

Normally, when people need Adobe/whatever, they will purchase also whatever OS is needed to run them - if you are getting expensive pro apps, 130 EUR/OS license (pro/oem/before VAT) is a rounding error. To Adobe this signals, that the porting effort would be a wasted effort, which they can save and earn the same revenue anyway.

So it is more realistic that some competitor appears, fills that demand and grows somewhat, before established vendors notice.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by mrsteveman1 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @04:24PM (#18157065)
> That means, when there will be people willing to purchase Linux versions of Adobe/Autodesk/whatever apps, but not their Windows or Mac versions.

I think this is becoming a real possibility.

The other day I realized that all of the commercial FPGA design tools I use, from Xilinx, Altera/Intel, and Lattice, are available for Linux as well as Windows.

And despite being fairly expensive if you need the versions that support larger FPGAs, they all provide a free version.

Naturally they target the enterprise distributions like RHEL, and there are quirks in general and some friction to using them on other distributions, but they actually work and they're supported.

Now, perhaps there's something about the people working on FPGAs that makes demand for Linux versions of those tools much higher, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of installations for those tools was still mostly on Windows.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by CyberDildonics on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:37AM (#18155646)
I think it's more likely there will be simple but competent web apps that fill those niches for most people before Adobe ports to linux.

Autodesk has many programs now that run on Linux. Maya has run on linux for over 15 years.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by vetinari on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:37PM (#18156838)
When Autodesk bought Alias|Wavefront, it was already running on Linux, with their customers running Linux. Killing it would damage their business, so they continue with the development.

Meanwhile their original product, 3ds max, is pretty locked into Windows.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by CyberDildonics on Sunday October 07, 2018 @07:40PM (#18163223)
3D Studio was written directly for Windows NT and isn't available on Mac OSX either. There is already Maya, Softimage XSI, Houdini and Modo on Linux. I'm not sure where the expectation comes from that 3D Studio would be ported to Linux. It isn't any sort of a standard for general 3d work, isn't used much by the computer animation or visual effects companies, and is more of an exception.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by vetinari on Monday October 08, 2018 @03:29AM (#18164937)
It is not an expectation of being ported to Linux, it is a statement of fact of being windows exclusive.

It was originally a DOS application, which was rewritten for Windows, and is used in game development.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by CyberDildonics on Monday October 08, 2018 @10:49AM (#18167952)
The original comment was about Adobe and Autodesk 'supporting' linux properly. 3D Studio was originally written for DOS, but published by Autodesk, not written by them.

It doesn't make sense to say Autodesk doesn't 'properly support Linux' when they have software for Linux, and one program that isn't for Linux doesn't really have much demand on Linux in the first place.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by pknopf on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:19PM (#18156751)
My hangup with Windows is that it just isn't cli friendly.

It is really hard to change anything about the system without verbose and cryptic calls to under documented executables.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by fermienrico on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:05PM (#18157264)
Don’t forget the registry system, poor DPI scaling, UI piece patch going back to Windows XP (mouse pointer speed dialog box), BSOD if a third party hardware segfaults, fuck you Windows Explorer, everything freezes until network access time out has expired, etc.

Windows is a poorly made piece of software rotten from the core. If you look deeper, you discover the horror of how things work and fragments from Steve Ballmer days.

You can try to make an argument that it’s not rotten to the core, but no way in hell anyone would say “Windows is beautiful”.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by guhidalg on Monday October 08, 2018 @10:09AM (#18167558)
Is Linux? Is Mach?
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by JohnTHaller on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:57PM (#18156033)
Supports the widest array of applications. Supports the widest array of hardware. Has an OS, drivers, and software that can take advantage of the highest and lowest end modern hardware. Still runs on 10+ year old laptops. Best OS for gaming by an absurd margin. Etc.

A business having constant issues with Windows updates breaking machine needs to hire better people on the hardware planning and acquisitions sides, QA sides, and Windows/Active Directory/Group Policy sides.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by foepys on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:16PM (#18156735)
> A business having constant issues with Windows updates breaking machine needs to hire better people [...]

What if I only have 5 employees and just want to use the computers with MS Office and another industry specific program on it?

Do I need to hire a dedicated technician to make sure my PC is running or do I want the OS manufacturer that I pay to deliver a product that isn't suddenly deleting my data?

There are some smaller IT shops doing IT support for SMB but they can't come in every day and the customers are often not skilled enough to notice that something is wrong. Like losing valuable data through Windows and incremental backups.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by gruez on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:47PM (#18156896)
>Do I need to hire a dedicated technician to make sure my PC is running or do I want the OS manufacturer that I pay to deliver a product that isn't suddenly deleting my data?

use the Semi-Annual Channel and defer updates for 365 days? presumably by then the issues would have been worked out.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Jonnax on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:16PM (#18156738)
The fact that a business has to hire these people to do that job is indicative of flaws in Windows.

As well as this idea that consumer users are essentially beta testers.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by mxscho on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:27AM (#18154584)
Is this also the reason why the download page of Windows Server 2019 images [1] within the Microsoft Evaluation Center has been removed? It worked three days ago when it was referenced at the end of the general availablity announcement [2].

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-...

[2] https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2018/10/02/wi...

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by johnchristopher on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:37AM (#18154443)
The issue being that documents get deleted.

2018. Windows update deletes non system files.

2018.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by kijin on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:03AM (#18154516)
This is not a regular Windows update. A Redstone update is effectively a new version of Windows, and the updater replaces your existing Windows installation with the new version during the mandatory reboot. In other words, it's more like do-release-upgrade than apt-get upgrade. Obviously, this is going to be much more risky than the typical security patch.

But Microsoft is doing its damnedest to make it look like just another update to ordinary users. It's the same trick they used to automatically "upgrade" Windows 7/8/8.1 computers to Windows 10, only subtler this time because users already have Windows 10 which helps conceal what's going on.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:24AM (#18154785)
The real problem here is what you mention in your second paragraph: Microsoft has deliberately chosen to blur the lines between different types of update. The Windows 10 world makes little distinction between a small, essential security update with no normally observable change in behaviour and a full reinstallation of the underlying OS.

So, I don't think Microsoft should be allowed to rely on the kind of argument you make in your first paragraph. If it's going to push everything out as being just the latest version of Windows 10 that everyone must have, then all updates are now "regular Windows updates", and the entire-OS update needs to be as reliable as the essential security update that just replaces a flawed networking library with a bug-fixed version.

If Microsoft can't do that -- and obviously it's an extremely difficult requirement to meet, with ample evidence suggesting that it won't happen -- then maybe the whole mandatory updates strategy isn't such a great idea?

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by kijin on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:14AM (#18154973)
I agree with everything you said. It would be really interesting to see Microsoft adopt the Arch Linux release model, but unfortunately I don't think it will happen. They're stuck in a difficult place, trying to do SaaS with an operating system installed on users' devices.

If you use Windows 10 Professional or above, though, you can defer Redstone updates for a maximum of 1 year while still getting the usual bugfixes. I guess that's how long Microsoft wants to keep supporting the not-updated version.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Silhouette on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:40AM (#18155351)
If you use Windows 10 Professional or above, though, you can defer Redstone updates for a maximum of 1 year while still getting the usual bugfixes.

That's OK as far as it goes, and maybe for casual power users (if there is such a thing) it's better than nothing.

However, for small business users who would traditionally also be using the Pro edition of Windows, a one-year delay is marginally more valuable than a chocolate teapot. We're talking about the operating system, the foundation on which the rest of our software base is built, and that software base may cost thousands per machine. The guaranteed support period is missing a zero if it wants to be taken seriously.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by johnchristopher on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:26AM (#18154801)
I'd say it's pretty consistent with their stance on windows 10 being the "last windows, no more versioning, no more major version, just continuous update".

With that being said it's a bit annoying to say the least that they don't discern between minor and major updates (considering the time it takes to perform it and then the time it takes users to find their marks around if they change UI stuff).

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by kkarakk on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:48AM (#18154474)
apple doesn't let you fix your computers outside of their service ecosystem and Microsoft actively deletes your files coz users are their testers. i'd say this is very 2018. being superficially attractive(MacBook pro w/ pointless touchbar,Surfacebook with grease stain attracting alcantara proprietary port connectors) and then squeezing your user for every ounce of value is very 2018
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by nickjj on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:53AM (#18154490)
I updated the day the patch was available.

Although Windows 10 Pro had the option that would have deleted the files set to "not configured" which as far as I know is safe. I set it to "disabled" just to be extra safe.

This reminds me of an ongoing gag in the movie Airplane![0]

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to [stop smoking, stop drinking, stop sniffing glue, update Windows 10]".

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v46plhmxXU4

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by nolok on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:51AM (#18154658)
To be fair, no matter the OS updating on the latest and greatest immediately after release is always risky and should not be done unless you have clean backups and are ready to reinstall it all if needed. Linux testing, iOS, OSX, Windows 10, ... All of them.

If you want stability and safe update, you either use safe release version (Debian stable, Win10 LTSB, ...); you wait the service pack, or you give it a month or two to have issues found.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by nickjj on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:21AM (#18154769)
Yeah I'm fine with the decision I chose to make. Having a better built in snipping tool was worth it!
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by pletnes on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:59AM (#18155756)
Is win10 LTSB available to anyone who wants on win10 home/pro?
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by jaclaz on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:42PM (#18155953)
I don't think so, you need some corporate contract or the like.

JFYI, accordingly to this, LTSB is now LTSC and you shouldn't choose it unless you have an embedded device:

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/ukplatforms/2018/06/11/s...

Of the twelve key points/reasons given in the above, more than six make me actually want to have a LTSC, however.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Tsubasachan on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:24AM (#18155265)
Unfortunately that's no longer how Windows works. I'm in the One Plus beta. If something breaks its my own fault. I was warned. Windows pushes updates to EVERYONE and you can't opt out.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by anticensor on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:46PM (#18156889)
You can, if you disable Windows Update from MMC service panel, it will not try to re-enable itself, but that's that. It is either all or none. No intermediate settings.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by anticensor on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:49PM (#18156901)
Can you tell us which hive&key it is?
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by nickjj on Sunday October 07, 2018 @11:45AM (#18161122)
You can follow this guide:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/940017/user-profile...

You access it through the group policy editor (covered in the above article).

I guess this was a problem once with Vista 10 years ago. The same exact steps work with Windows 10.

Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by anticensor on Sunday October 07, 2018 @01:29PM (#18161657)
Windows 10 should be considered an eternal beta according to your post.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by Tsubasachan on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:19AM (#18155231)
Wonder what this means for the next Enterprise LTSB? Glad y'all beta testers caught this. Muchos gracias.
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by baloki on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:34AM (#18154434)
facepalm
Re:Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update due to maj... by nitinreddy88 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:46AM (#18155703)
There is so much negativity about this update or windows updates. I must tell you that they roll out the same update to more than million machines within Microsoft even before its released to public.