> Android phones have better cameras and match apple in most other hardware metrics

I am sure there is an Android phone out there which has got a better camera, another one that has got better speakers, yet another one with better display and yet another which had got a better build than iPhone. The thing that most people forget is that almost all Android phones have some USPs and in exchange they compromise a lot on something else. Why do you thing the entire Android ecosystem should be treated as a single entity against the iPhone? Show me an Android that does every single thing better (or on par) with iPhone.

My experience has been that iPhones are usually not the absolute best at pretty much anything, but they are usually right up there at the top. Maybe it doesn’t have the absolute best camera, but it certainly has one of the best, and so on. And let’s not even compare the longevity of devices.

And before someone talks about prices, Androids that compete in the same arena as the iPhone cost about the same.

Then there is the app ecosystem. Sure, you have all the big names available on Android. But there are lot of smaller developers with great apps which are missing from Android — simply because of the crappy ecosystem which takes a village to build and support apps for. There are no apps which come close to the likes of OmniFocus, Things etc. And while Google does come up with cutting edge tech like AR, a lot of it is not adopted immediately — if ever — by the third party developers who have to wait for the shiny new version of Android to gain some momentum — something that takes forever in Android land.

So no, it is not just the processor that the iPhone has a clear lead on — it’s the overall experience. I couldn’t care less about the specs as long as the experience is maintained.

Full disclaimer: I am someone who usually carries two phones. This means that given the lack of alternatives, I end up with an Android in addition to my iPhone. And while I like some of the features offered by the individual Android OEMs, I do not consider the ecosystem as a whole to be anywhere near comparable to that of iOS.

> And let’s not even compare the longevity of devices.

Why not? My android phones last multiple years - I've only switched when moving countries and the mobile bands are incompatible. My Nexus 4, from 2012 but running an up-to-date LineageOS, is my current backup phone, and works perfectly. I daresay it works significantly better than my parents similarly aged iPhone 5 (or 5s?), which also has an up-to-date OS, and runs slow as molasses.

But really, the main benefit of Android, for me and most other people I'd guess, is price. The combined purchase price of all 4 of my androids is about equivalent to a single current iPhone flagship (150+300+250+360 Canadian dollars).

I agree with you on general specs - iPhone are pretty much guaranteed to be at (or at least near) the top, for just about every category. Comparing the "average android device" to that will not be favourable. But the android ecosystem does give you a lot more choice - if you stuck to flagship Samsung or equivalent, I think you'd find it to be similarly at-or-near-the-top in most every category. And if, like me, you don't want the best of everything, but rather a decent-at-most-things but at a lower price, Android works better.

Agreed, I personally don't need the newest of the newest in my phone. Even though I used to upgrade every year in the early days of the smartphone I recently bought a mi a2 lite with stock android.

€200.

Yes, it is not the best, but honestly I don't need a ferrari to get to work.

Agreed. I miss the old Nexus line :(

I'm rocking the very solid Nexus 6P. I had to swap out that battery which was a bit fiddly but easy enough and very cheap. I see no need to upgrade in the near-medium future.

I have both a Google Pixel 2 and an Apple iPhone X (my personal and my work phone, respectively) and I seriously prefer the Pixel in every regard, with the minor exception of lacking 3D touch support. But then it doesn't really seem like 3D Touch is used for much of anything on the iPhone (and when it is, it's a hidden cheat-code-like thing that is very undiscoverable).

I even like the shape of my Pixel better. The X's bump is a gimmick at best, a hindrance to app presentation at worst.

That is perfectly fine. It always boils down to what you prefer and what fits your workflow. I have no problem with Android in general. It is the grandstanding claims like Androids are better than iPhones at everything that I object to. It is preferable to have more choices than less. I wish the likes of Windows Phone, Ubuntu Touch and BB 10 had survived.

Interesting. I thought the pixel screen looked terrible compared to the X.

It does — the Pixel 2 XL screen that is. The Samsung manufactured Pixel 2 screen, on the other hand, is pretty good.

>>> The processor is one of the only thing Apple has a clear lead in over Android flagships.

This is the only thing I do not give a shit about. A much slower CPU would be just fine. The true advantage is the UX. Just try to disable automatic grammar correction on both iOS and Android and count the number of items you had to go through. It is insane how much crap Android has for every single thing. Designed by engineers for engineers mentality is the root cause here. Apple puts the user in charge how an mobile OS should look like or should behave and this is the biggest differentiating factor between iOS vs other platforms.

But I can't root my iPhone and use it as a Node.js server whilst simultaneously sniffing 802.11 traffic at DefCon. Therefore it's useless to me, and to everyone else who owns a phone as well.

/s

Totally. This is why the 0.000001% of mobile phone users who want to run node.js whilst simultaneously sniffing 802.11 traffic at DefCon use something else.

At Defcon, phone roots you!

Thanks for that. I haven't heard a Russian reversal[1] in years. One my alltime favorites from back in the day (when Steve Jobs was still alive):

At other companies you get jobs. At Apple, Jobs gets you!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reversal

Unlike with iOS, you don't need to root your phone (or pay Apple a yearly fee) to do those things and many more on an Android.

That comment was sarcastic. It was intended to mock common pro-Android arguments by pointing out that the author doesn't care about doing that at all.

You don't need to root your phone to do that on iOS, either.

Sadly, rooting or reflashing a phone often requires to use proprietary software distributed on dubious forums.

> Therefore it's useless to me, and to everyone else who owns a phone as well.

Brilliant!

Did someone vote this down because they thought I was sarcastic? I loved how the parent had characterized it.

> Apple puts the user in charge how an mobile OS should look like or should behave and this is the biggest differentiating factor between iOS vs other platforms.

The user in charge? Interesting. I have both an iPhone and an Android handset. It has been this way for years (work is the reason). I believe I will never be able to fully accept the iPhone.

It seems like it wants to make a lot of (often stupid) decisions for me. When I want to connect my phone via cable to transfer some files it is always a hassle. I can't sideload apps that somehow goes against Apple's will. As an example, NewPipe is a blessing on Android if you enjoy YouTube (not available via Google Play). The fact that full phone backups are done via an video/audio player (iTunes) makes zero sense.

I feel trapped and irritated when I use the iPhone. When I use the Android phone I feel like the OS trusts me to make my own decisions.

I should perhaps mention that I chose to run Android without a Google account or Gapps. I've gone from Cyanogen via Copperhead to Lineage. Ironically, Android without Google is the best phone experience I've ever had.

Backups do not require iTunes at all. You can backup and restore to iCloud automatically. I have not used iTunes for backup for a long time. Also if you want to use iTunes you do not need to have the phone plugged into anything. Having iTunes open and have the phone connected to the same network via Wifi is all you need to do to sync.

> Also if you want to use iTunes you do not need to have the phone plugged into anything.

Titanium Backup on Android allows for pretty much seamless updates across ROMs (if you know what you're doing). Try doing the same on iOS... oh, sorry. There's no choice in OS vendors there.

> if you know what you're doing

That is the key difference. What if I don’t want to be the sysadmin for my phone? What if I don’t want to root my phone? What if I prefer things to just work out of box?

https://youtu.be/0eEG5LVXdKo (start at 2:37)

It's about choice. 2 billion people with Androids aren't sysadmins. The phones work fine out of the box. The parent likes choice, while some people don't miss it. No need for strawman arguments.

> The phones work fine out of the box.

Do they? Is there a one touch full device backup solution for Android that doesn’t involve rooting the phone or flashing custom ROM? Is there a way to easily sync my sessages to other devices[1]?

The two billion people do no flash custom ROMs or root their devices. They do not even get sucurity patches on time. But they try to use their device just the way one would use an iPhone — with almost zero customisation. So they end up with a phone which doesn’t do everything it should straight out of the box and is vulnerable for most of its lifetime, for the sake of choices/cusomizability they would never use.

I you are talking about the choice of OEMs, I agree. It is not ideal that Apple is the only iOS vendor[2]. But the benefits, IMO, outweigh the problems.

[1] Messages for web is a recent advancement.

[2] While we are on the subject of multiple OEMs, I’d prefer if OEMs followed the Windows model where they can install a few apps and tweak things a bit, but can’t (do not?) make drastic changes to the OS. I’d prefer to live in a world where I don’t have to worry about whether the Android Phone I am looking at is more vulnerable than the others.

If you are OK with a Google account, yes, there is backup. I suspect you have to pay if you want more than 15gb, but that's a pretty OK limit.

The first part of the comment is useful info. The second is pretty useless. There is zero need for this to turn into vim vs. emacs which is what everyone of these threads seems to turn into lately.

>Backups do not require iTunes at all. You can backup and restore to iCloud automatically.

As always, replace "cloud" with "someone else's computer" to see why I don't consider this an option.

Then you can use iTunes to back up locally. Not seeing the issue beyond you dislike Apple.

What? But then they do require iTunes, no? Which was the point of the comment I replied to.

>t seems like it wants to make a lot of (often stupid) decisions for me. When I want to connect my phone via cable to transfer some files it is always a hassle. I can't sideload apps that somehow goes against Apple's will. As an example, NewPipe is a blessing on Android if you enjoy YouTube (not available via Google Play). The fact that full phone backups are done via an video/audio player (iTunes) makes zero sense.

This is what bothers me too. On an iOS device, you have to do everything in an app, and if the app doesn't support what you want to do, it's just not possible. Want to take an mp3 file from the web and play it with iTunes. Not easy. Got some audio books that you want to load in and play in your podcast player? Not easy. Everything has to go through each app, and there's no way to move data from one app to another, unless the apps have specifically setup that hand-off.

> there's no way to move data from one app to another, unless the apps have specifically setup that hand-off

iOS now has what's essentially a file-picker since iOS 11, to support storage of files on your device and iCloud.

This irritates me too, and is a step back to the old PC/Mac era of app silos.

Many things you state are factually incorrect. The rest has alternatives and does not bother the majority of the user base.

how easy is it to block ads on an iPhone these days (including in apps)?

DNSCloak lets you load a blacklist and/or select an ad-blocking DNS server: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dnscloak-dnscrypt-doh-client...

So it's pretty easy.

Does that let you block urls? Like, the way leechblock does on firefox.

I know ios can do this with content blockers, but they only work in safari and are too easy to circumvent.

huh, well there goes my main argument against iOS.

I use https://1blocker.com/ on the iPhone. It’s not uBlock Origin but good enough.

> top flagships from Samsung, Google, OnePlus all run Android without any stutter at stable 60fps too

This is true. The problem is that the FPS don't matter so much as latency touch-to-update does. And Apple keeps this latency about 1/2 of what Android can do.

I actually find the touch latency thing to be really misleading. I have one iOS device (and iPad Pro 9.7"). The touch latency is definitely better than my Pixel 2 XL, but not enough for me to ever care about it in the best case for both devices.

The annoyances come when the responsiveness is below the standard for either device (eg, 1/4second to 1/2 second delays). I see some of those on both devices, tbh.

Have any evidence to back that claim up?

Even the $320 Pocophone F1 can perform at and above the iPhone XS Max performance in everyday tasks [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emPiTZHdP88

These kinds of speed tests where they just open apps and "measure" how long they take to open are extremely unscientific and aren't good indicators of a phone's performance. There's so many variables they never control for except making sure there's no apps in the multitasking view. They're barely useful for anything other than knowing how many milliseconds you'll save opening an app.

Except opening communication and productivity apps is what people usually do when using their phones, not running CPU benchmarks. That Apple is so far behind and has been for years makes using iOS a laggy experience for anyone used to Android's speed.

Interesting. For reasons entirely separate from speed and benchmarks I left Android 18 months or so ago, and bought an iPhone SE knowing it was "last years tech". Despite having had mainly expensive, well specced, Android phones including a flagship or two I found iOS the most responsive, least laggy experience I've ever encountered on a smart phone.

I was actually quite shocked at just how impressed I was on iOS 10 after Android phones that had cost me twice as much and many decades learning every UI and UX experience will disappoint.

I have the opposite experience, but these are just anecdotes. Every YouTube video comparing non-Samsung Android to iOS seems to agree with my experience.

> iOS a laggy experience for anyone used to Android's speed

This is the first time I've heard this.

Most of the time it is complaints about Android being laggy.

I'm going to go with "in 2018, both Android and iPhone are perfectly usable and fast at everyday tasks".

That's why I said 'everyday tasks'. This wasn't really meant to be scientific or compare heavy workloads, but claiming iPhones have a giant advantage in total is a bit untrue.

Here’s a slightly older chart of touch latency tests: https://www.reddit.com/r/oneplus/comments/5fp160/les_numeriq...

I’d be interested to see if there are more recent tests.

Here’s Dan Luu’s tests on scrolling latency: https://danluu.com/input-lag/

Can the $320 Pocofone F1 let me watch Netflix in HD? I consider that to be an everyday task.

According to Netflix, yes you can.

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23939

> In addition to the models listed above, you can stream Netflix in HD on devices powered by the following chipsets. Check with the manufacturer of your device to confirm hardware specifications:

[...]

Qualcomm Snapdragon 845

https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_pocophone_f1-9293.php

> Chipset Qualcomm SDM845 Snapdragon 845 (10 nm)

No, you can’t. It doesn’t have Widevine L1.

https://m.gsmarena.com/the_pocophone_f1_cant_stream_hd_video...

Typing this on a pixel, "fully stable" is a whopper of an exaggeration. Maybe I have a lemon, but I've had camera crashes, GPS issues, numerous freezes in all sorts of Google apps, and more.

I had the same thing on my iPhone 6S (yes, it was broken). Sooo, what does this one datapoint prove?

One, not much, but I've had almost every member of the Nexus line, starting at the Nexus One, and none have performed flawlessly. Not this badly, but they've never really approached the level of polish that I've seen on the iPhone. This one is worse to the point that it's making me seriously consider switching to an iPhone. That said, the grass is always greener, and I'm sure I just don't know the flaws on the other side of the fence.

You are not the only one.

>Android phones have better cameras and match apple in most other hardware metrics

High-end android phones. But the run of the mill android phones that most people I know have... not so much.

The run of the mill iPhone 5C camera that people I know have is a pile of trash. Compare new $700 phones to $700 phones.

the 5C is now 5 years old. No one should pay anywhere near that much. $750 now buys you an iPhone XR with the one of the same cameras that's on the new XS...

Which is what he was comparing. The iPhone XS camera is worse than top of the line Android cameras, and top of the line iPhones have had worse cameras than top of the line Android phones for years.

The only extant Android phone with superior camera hardware is probably the Huawei P20 Pro which has insane low light performance for a smartphone and makes up for middling software with a large bump in image sensor hardware. The Pixel 2's software is good enough to subjectively push it ahead of all iPhones until the recent XS/XR where I think Smart HDR and an increase to an equal sensor size has just about tied with it.

Maybe, but the iPhone camera has never lagged terribly behind the top of the line Androids. But the same time, the so called “top of the line” Androids had other compromises that iPhone usually did not.

An iPhone is usually a well balanced phone. It may not have the best of anything, but is usually right there at the top. And if you want a great camera so badly that you are willing to compromise on everything else, by all means, buy a dedicated digital camera. Similarly, if you want your phone to be so good at playing music that you are fine with the other compromises, you might want to look into a dedicated music player. Smartphones are meant to to generally purpose jack-of-all-trades sort of devices and the iPhone excels at that. If I want a device specialised for a purpose, I’ll buy the just that — not a smartphone.

Please, define worse. Number of pixels? This doesn't mean better pictures (often worse). Performance? Clearly, no. iOS camera is much faster. ML processing? Clearly iOS is much much better to preprocess your photos. On latest generation they even get several pictures with different focal points and pick a best one. Sure, their camera is just current generation without inflated specs, but works much better.

Picture quality. Performance is exactly the same — both have zero shutter lag. All reviews so far show XS is worse than a top of the line Android phone camera from last year.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/19/17878018/iphone-xs-x-pixe...

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/iphone-xs-max,review-5747.html

https://youtu.be/tZ9wpMl8pzo

Shutter performance is less important than time to start.

All tests shows different white balance between pixel and xs. This is highly depends on screens that are used on the phones and photos on iPhone can simply adjusted to iPhone screens.

iPhone 5C was never top of the line though. When it came out it was already last years tech.

Again, I was comparing top of the line phones only, not the 5C.

According to Amazon, an iPhone 5C is about $100.

Where are the low end iphones?

iPhone SE or 8?

RIP, SE. I’ll miss mine when it finally dies.

One more plus for Apple: in-person support is fantastic. My battery was going, so I made an appointment at the local store. They noticed my screen had a tiny crack at the lower left corner, so while they did the battery, they replaced the screen.

Cost: $0. For sure I bought this phone 2+ years ago...

> One more plus for Apple: in-person support is fantastic. My battery was going, so I made an appointment at the local store. They noticed my screen had a tiny crack at the lower left corner, so while they did the battery, they replaced the screen.

I'm guessing that you met a really nice Genius, because I'd imagine that screen cracks come under accidental damage and usually don't get covered under warranty.

I wanted to get my 6S's battery replaced under Apple's 2018 battery replacement program, but it has a cracked screen and Apple won't service the battery unless I replace the screen too.

As it happens, the Genius didn’t spot the tiny crack. As he was typing “no screen damage” in to the system, I pointed it out to him.

He said oh, that might make it difficult, because the SE’s battery is accessed via the screen being suction-pulled off. He went out back to check.

When he came back, he said they’d replace the screen as well. I’d like to think this is one of those textbook “honesty pays” situations, but who knows.

I would also put privacy in Apple’s favor

I wouldn't. iOS spies even more by default (no way to disable AGPS vs. opt in on Android) and doesn't allow using privacy-enabling apps by default (system-wide ad/tracker blocker, real Firefox, Signal, local maps, etc.) unless you hack your phone. Worse, it doesn't let you develop for your own phone without rebuilding weekly or paying a yearly fee for the privilege.

I use a system-wide ad/tracker blocker (1Blocker X) and Signal. I have a local maps app (maps.me) that I only use when hiking, so I don't know how good it is for general use.

That leaves:

(1)AGPS (which I'm not informed on, I've never thought of turning it off)

(2)real Firefox (aka alternative rendering engine that you can set as the system default)

(Develop for your own phone without rebuilding or paying isn't a security thing, just a convenience thing)

vs. Google mining your data at every opportunity and Google/carriers dropping support for phones as soon as they can get away with it.

I'll take iOS.

> I use a system-wide ad/tracker blocker (1Blocker X)

It only blocks ads in webviews, unlike ad blockers on Android, which block ads and trackers in native apps as well.

> and Signal.

I specifically said you can't set it as your default, which makes it significantly less convenient and therefore much less useful.

> vs. Google mining your data at every opportunity

This happens when you use Google apps on iOS as well. There is no difference.

> Google/carriers dropping support for phones as soon as they can get away with it.

Buy a phone that gets support. When you buy a car, you don't judge all cars by the worst manufacturers. When you buy an Android phone, doing the same is equally nonsensical.

> I'll take iOS.

Whatever floats your boat. At least now you have enough information to make an informed decision.

> Buy a phone that gets support

Which phone provides the same level of support as Apple ?

I don’t use google apps

That's fine. You don't have to use Google apps on Android. Better, you get to choose which apps to use as default on Android, unlike on iOS as I showed earlier. Whether you use Google apps or not, iOS collects more data from you than Android, as I also showed earlier.

I understand that Safari is the system default such that if I click on a link in some app that says "open this in a browser" it will always go to Safari and even if I copy the link and paste it in a preferred browser it is going to use webkit instead of that browsers real renderer...

What are you talking about with other apps? What would it mean to have Signal the default app? When I want to use Signal I open signal, there's no convenience factor. Signal shows up as an option on the share sheet and I could even delete messages.app from the share sheet if I didn't want to use it.

I guess I can theoretically grasp links that open in maps and wanting to be able to change that default. (though I don't care to, since I don't have to send my data to Google) Are there links somewhere that open in "the default messenger app"?

What are the other default apps that I'm not able to change on iOS?

Also what is this about AGPS data going to Apple? I've just seen an assertion by you, nothing else.

Summary:

1)I'll fully give you the WebKit, you care about that, I don't, but I agree it's a thing.

2) You care about Maps, I don't, and I'm not sure it is that much of an issue. I interact with maps 90+% of the time after opening the app so if I want to stop using Apple's Maps it is a minor inconvenience.

3) I don't understand your point on Signal

4)I think there are other "default apps" you are talking about that I don't know about.

5)What are you talking about with Apple collecting AGPS data?

added: 6)Isn't AOSP not really useable as a phone interface... that is the impression I've gotten. How else am I supposed to not "use Google apps on Android"?

oh, I forgot the other one I'll give you: I'd love to be able to apply my Ad/Tracker blocker to apps in addition to the browser in iOS.

> Buy a phone that gets support.

So Pixel, and, uh, Pixel XL?

I wanted to buy a Pixel and saw that Google only supports them for two years (Pixel 2 Security Updates end in 2020).

Now I‘m typing this on a iPhone 8 that I plan to use for at least the next four years.

Off the top of my head, all Android One phones, Nokia, and Blackberry.

> iOS spies even more by default

The default on iOS is to not send any telemetry data to Apple.

And Apple has used differential privacy across all of their features.

> The default on iOS is to not send any telemetry data to Apple.

This is actually the default on Android. I showed a specific case of data acquisition that iOS does that you can't opt out of. On Android, that data acquisition is opt-in.

I'm not aware of any use of differential privacy on the Android platform.

And who cares about AGPS. Your cellular provider who is the only one who has access to AGPS data can already track your location based on cell tower information.

IOS uses positioning based on cell towers and Wi-Fi access points, so if your phone has its location services active Apple can tell that a device with a specific ID is near a certain location. This ID is rotated periodically and not linked to your device or to you but you can’t turn this off.

AGPS means the phone downloads the GPS almanac, the dynamic dataset you need for using GPS, from the internet as opposed to watching the satellites for about 30 minutes to download it. That would be stupid and would not have any positive impact on your privacy.

> Your cellular provider who is the only one who has access to AGPS data

And Apple on iOS.

> I'm not aware of any use of differential privacy on the Android platform.

Android itself doesn't need it. It collects less data than iOS. If you're talking about apps on Android that use differential privacy, there are plenty, and their implementation of differential privacy is better than Apple's. https://www.macobserver.com/analysis/google-apple-differenti...

It doesn’t matter if you “turn off AGPS” completely on your phone. If you are on a cell network, the cellphone companies are selling your location

https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/us-cell-carriers-se...

Of course you have to opt in for apps.

We were comparing iOS to Android. What the cell phone companies collect affects both equally. AGPS collection makes iOS more invasive than Android, and you can't even opt out.

Agreed, but I'd also argue that 99% of people don't care about what the processor is. It seems even the basic GUI of Android can't do things that iPhone was doing in 2007. (Live resizing of app windows, realtime view blurring, etc)

Even today, the keyboard on Android forces an entire view refresh, awkwardly jerking the entire view. It's a jarring and unfinished experienced IMO.

I was an Android fanatic - I had the very first device, the HTC G1, and about 10 other devices since then.

Eventually I got the Google Nexus 5, an Android flagship. Its updates ceased about a year after I bought it.

I gave up and got an iPhone 6S. Still getting updates to this day, despite being a 3 year old device. The constant software updates and support that Apple offers is clearly superior to what is provided with Android - even when you buy the 'official' Google phone.