News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by bpchaps on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:26PM (#18145512)
It's because many of us have worked at companies that use JIRA extensively. It's a tool that marks the sign that a company cares more about the management of staff as units, instead of caring about employees as breathing and creative forces.

It makes management's job easier, but it does nothing for the managed, except lead to frustration and hundreds of emails that have to be waded through for that 5% chance of relevancy.

Their integration seems particularly targeted to JIRA, when they've lapsed on many other useful features and improved UX implementations. It reflects GH's priorities as a company.

It's a sign that github is catering to management over the programmer. Contrast that to gitlab, whose implementations are designed to make the programmer's job easier.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by ahi on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:44PM (#18145585)
I work in a shop that had effectively no project management. When jira was introduced it was a godsend. Obviously email and slack requests aren't better, so what is the alternative system that has people hating on jira?

Honest question.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by bpchaps on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:08AM (#18145687)
How long has your company been using JIRA for?

JIRA has a tendency to.... decay. New ticket types are created with custom fields that aren't ever kept up to date. Everyone starts to choose random entries because they have no choice, and no way to add new ones. Once that starts, things fall into chaos because nobody knows the "right" way to file tickets. Tickets soon become immeasurably immeasurable. Projects become categorized incorrectly on a constant basis. The only people who know how to use JIRA effectively are the ones who know how to ignore all the noise. Once those people leave, you're left with pure, unadulterated chaos.

And then you get people who try to fix it by adding a new ticket type or project group, etc. Rinse, repeat.

If you haven't already, then you should check out JIRA's query language and its API. The query language is... special (and doesn't support wildcards, last I checked). Its API, instead of displaying field names as you see it in their interface, shows "fieldname_21234". No joke. You have to run another api request for all of the field names and associate them yourself. It's painful

To your point - sure, JIRA can be used effectively. Though, any bad tool can be used well if enforced. But that's not what most of us have seen in the wild. JIRA eventually just becomes a behemoth of a tool.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by wizardofmysore on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:17AM (#18146320)
Dev here. I worked in the company that used Jira. Used it for 4 years. It was really useful.

It is anyday better than getting tasks over email.

We had very minimal customisations. A simple set of swimlanes that we update throughout the product development process.

From what you are telling it looks like your team had other problems in delivery. You tried to solve it via Jira by adding new custom fields and forcing people to update them. Solving the deeper issue would have helped there.

I have been able to track my deliverables. See how my team is performing. Plan for the next sprint. Perform retrospectives and capture action items. The tool hasn't broken while doing this. UI is decent. I really don't see a problem with the tool, it serves its goal.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by donkeyd on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:56AM (#18146459)
> JIRA has a tendency to.... decay.

Is there any enterprise scale tool that doesn't, when it isn't managed correctly? It needs management just like any other tool that's being used on an enterprise scale. People just want to be able to set and forget, but then it doesn't adapt well to individual departments and teams. Then people either start messing with it, or if they can't, they start hating it.

The benefit of a smaller tool is then, that teams can just get their own instance and mess that up without impacting the organization.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by baud147258 on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:28AM (#18147541)
> it doesn't adapt well to individual departments and teams

With Jira, one can create project-specific issue types, fields and workflow.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by meetbryce on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:17AM (#18146058)
That sounds a lot like a human problem, not a tool problem.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Twisol on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:26AM (#18146097)
There's a saying along the lines of, the purpose of a tool is determined by how its users use it. For instance, security dialogs are often useless because users blindly click through. Is this a human problem? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean we can blame users for not using the dialog properly? No, it doesn't. We're trying other approaches now that encourage better behaviors from users.

All that is to say, a human problem is fundamentally a tool problem.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by regularfry on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:29AM (#18146106)
It's an artefact of the tool having too many features.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Latteland on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:44AM (#18145783)
That's a great point about Jira, about decaying and left over ticket types. But I used TFS (team foundation server) in a job, and it had some of the same problems. Someone always felt the need to edit the dang project and team paths and it was just a pain in a big company with constant churn. One level deep labels is much easier to deal with.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by MaulingMonkey on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:12AM (#18145702)
The two... archtypical complaints typically I hear levied against JIRA are typically:

1) It's sometimes a tool for managerial micromanagement, such as the extraction of unreasonably certain estimates as "promises", which can then be adjusted further down by your project managers, which can then be used to pressure devs into crunch or worse, instead of as a means of adjusting expectations.

2) It's an extremely complicated piece of software which you can (read: will) overcustomize into oblivion, confusion, and general busywork. Having grown over the years, it's various complications are also not consistent with each other, so some features don't really work well with others. The antithesis of KISS or YAGNI.

3) Project managers will still ask you about stuff instead of referring to JIRA. What's the point of sending time estimates into the void if they're going to swing by and disrupt your flow to hear those same estimates from you in person anyways?!

#1 gives people a (reasonable) emotional reason to hate JIRA, #2 gives people a (reasonable) rational reason to hate JIRA. #3 probably counts for both. I feel like I'm the weird one out not having come to hate JIRA in my social circles.

Project management is important, but JIRA is just a tool, not project management. Ultimately, that's a communication problem with your stakeholders and the people who get to call the shots. Email, slack, trello boards, even water-cooler chit chat can be better than an over-configured JIRA install in the right hands with the right managers. Get everyone on the same page in terms of tasks and priorities, manage expectations, track progress, avoid last minute surprises...

Something like a Trello board is sometimes popular with the "JIRA is overcomplicated" crowd. I use it for personal projects sometimes. It's OK. I'm OK with JIRA in the right hands too though. You don't have to tweak every single knob and settings. You can practice some self restraint and avoid it nerd sniping you, probably.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by bisby on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:13AM (#18145709)
I was running an on-prem jira. But I felt like I was doing something completely wrong because it was so unbearably slow. I was slightly embarrassed that it was on me that this was running so slow.

Our team grew to the point where we needed a bigger license, so we just migrated over to Jira Cloud. And it was even slower than the on-prem install.

No "no project management" isn't a better solution. No, I can't name any alternatives off the top of my head that are better than jira. But holy cow, jira is not a good piece of software. It has a lot of great concepts, but it runs like garbage and really isn't THAT fancy for what most people require. Especially for the cost.

It's not good, but it's not exactly a risky move either. "No one ever got fired for choosing IBM."

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by hvidgaard on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:41AM (#18146165)
We use YouTrack with great success. We have a fully fledged issue tracker we can customize to our needs, and the agile boards make planning and executing sprints straight forward.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by stock_toaster on Friday October 05, 2018 @05:39AM (#18146831)
You really do have to basically over-provision the crap out of it, to get anything even in the neighborhood of “acceptable” performance.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by derefr on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:05AM (#18146263)
The worst shoes in the world are a godsend to a person who's been walking across the desert in bare feet. Doesn't mean they're good shoes.

Good project management systems are simple and frequently not completely technically automated. Trello, or its older cousin "index cards on a whiteboard" are popular. Regular GitHub issues handle much of what needs to be handled, as long as you impose an organizational policy for how you'll go about triaging and updating status in them. Scrum stand-ups are just... regular meetings. None of this is very fancy; none of it needs to be.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Aeolun on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:09AM (#18145696)
It’s not that JIRA cannot be decent, but in any enterpriseish environment it ALWAYS turns into a monster.

The Jira environment I’m currently working in, takes 2+ seconds for any interaction to update the interface (that’s the sped up version. People tell me it used to take 20...).

Creating a new ticket displays no less than 150 fields (not all of which are required, thank god).

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by stevenjohns on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:13AM (#18145707)
It depends on how Jira is used. In your case it appears that there was just oversight added when there wasn't before, but for many of us we get quizzed daily on whether or not we're logging hours for individual tasks, "burn down" is used as a measure of productivity and there are dozens upon dozens of emails sent out to the point where you can ignore everything and still do okay.

This is excluding Jira's design, which frustratingly makes you click several times to uncover data that should be obvious, and various other minor issues that just create headaches, for example: estimations for individual tasks don't bubble up for stories or epics, so you can have two wildly different sets of data to maintain.

The alternative systems would change depending on what people's issues with Jira are -- i.e are they design-based or ideology-based.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by lmm on Friday October 05, 2018 @09:23AM (#18147878)
Trello. No "workflows" that force you to drag the ticket through 5 different columns to get it to the state you wanted (or, even better, just make it completely impossible to undo a mistake), no approvals, no waiting 5 seconds for the UI every time you change something, just a bunch of task cards in columns that you drag between them.
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by _wmd on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:08AM (#18145684)
^ disenfranchised programmer alert

Jira's just a tool, a tool with an API, if it burns you so much then set up an email filter and spend a weekend on some GitHub-workalike wrapper or whatever other tool you believe does a better job. God I hate the damned thing, but placed beside all other similar tools in its class, I'd recommend it any day of the week, including over the joke of a system GitHub supplies - hell the ancient Bugzilla even compares favourably with GitHub.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by bpchaps on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:15AM (#18145719)
Yep :)

The sad part is... yeah, you're right. It's the best ticketing tool I've used, too.

I'm not sure what the solution is. My naive thought has always been that good management can mitigate most of the need for JIRA - even at large companies. Management like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer), perhaps.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by kasey_junk on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:39PM (#18145570)
The worst part is there is no evidence it makes managements job easier.

The saying is JIRA is yo project management what PowerPoint is to public speaking. For people who are good it can marginally improve the output but for most people it’s an easy way to wank away your time convincing yourself you are working on the right thing as you ignore the real issues.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Rapzid on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:33AM (#18145759)
> easy way to wank away your time convincing yourself you are working on the right thing as you ignore the real issues.

Replace "yourself" with "others" and you have the answer as to how Jira makes managements life easier ;)

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by drb91 on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:04AM (#18145860)
I’m not entirely convinced eg Trello or Asana would do much better here, and you need to organize planned work somewhere.

Personally I’m a fan of a physical Kanban board. This definitely scales far worse than JIRA does.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by kasey_junk on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:12AM (#18145875)
> his definitely scales far worse than JIRA does.

Does it? I think there are compelling arguments against it wrt remote employees. But I've seen no evidence that once you get bigger than a project that requires more than a physical Kanban boards any project synchronization becomes a farcical activity.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Aeolun on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:12AM (#18145704)
Nobody ever got fired for picking Jira
Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by stinos on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:06AM (#18146507)
It's a tool that marks the sign that a company cares more about the management of staff as units, instead of caring about employees as breathing and creative forces

That's almost too easy to counter, having worked at a startup with just 3 employees, all devs, and no typical managment whatsoever. Jira was and after like 10 years still is, the go-to tool for bug tracking and it does the job just fine, after a one-time and somewhat lengthy setup phase. Which is obviously nothing compared with the years of use..

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by dsumenkovic on Friday October 05, 2018 @10:28AM (#18148369)
Hello, thank you for mentioning GitLab.

Speaking of >making programmer's job easier<, we could say that GitLab Auto DevOps eliminates the complexities of getting going with automated software delivery by automatically setting up the pipeline and necessary integrations, freeing up yourself to focus on the culture part. That means everyone can skip the manual work of configuration, and focus on the creative and human aspects of software creation.

Here's more about it https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/topics/autodevops/

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by ken on Friday October 05, 2018 @10:23AM (#18148329)
Exactly. Opportunity cost. No software organization can do everything at the same time. What GitHub is saying with this is "It's more important for us to integrate with this thing that your management wants, than to fix any of those bugs you filed".

I was afraid the acquisition by Microsoft was going to lead to it becoming more enterprise-oriented and less user-oriented, and it appears like that's exactly what's happening.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by dabber on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:07AM (#18145680)
What are some alternatives you (or others) would suggest to Jira?

I don't mean that to come across snarky at all; I'm honestly curious what people are using and enjoy.

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by Michielvv on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:59AM (#18146475)
I learned about clubhouse.io last week. Testing it now, but it seems very nice. Just enough configuration and structure.

(We are coming from Trello which just doesn't deal well with a large number of tickets as you have only one view on them.)

Re:GitHub and Jira Software Integration by hvidgaard on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:43AM (#18146175)
We use YouTrack. It works well for us.