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Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:23AM (#18084177)
I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST"). That would simply not fly at my company.

It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by iagovar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:30AM (#18084250)
Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time.

Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:36AM (#18084311)
You can communicate directly without also being insulting. You don't need to literally feel what other people are feeling (empathy) to not go out of your way to make people feel bad about themselves. I don't think there's a concern with 'Linus didn't wish everyone a good morning/didn't compliment so-and-so's code while suggesting changes' but with 'Linus insulted people to their face'. The former is cuddly, the latter is politeness.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by fireflash38 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:49AM (#18084428)
'Empathy' in most of these cases mean: don't act like a vitriolic douche.

Don't insult or belittle the person. Learn to critique without being an asshole about it.

On the other hand: take criticism of your work without taking it personally. That's arguably a lot harder than the former, but it's gotta be done. It helps a lot when the person isn't being an asshole about the criticism though :)

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:52AM (#18084464)
It is indeed a two way street.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by iagovar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:02AM (#18084540)
I can agree with you.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by BeetleB on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:55AM (#18085082)
>Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time.

False dichotomy.

>Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

Also a false dichotomy.

Most effective people I've encountered in my career are direct and empathetic.

I'll merely link to the comment I wrote the last time this was discussed:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18002940

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:46AM (#18084395)
> Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time

It is this attitude that drives people, and especially women and minorities, away from tech.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by iagovar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:07AM (#18084583)
I work with women, I don't think they are that stupid they cannot handle it. It must be something else. Definitely none of them cried or left because we get to the point in the meetings, or I don't compliment them before criticizing their work.

I think not working like this may be even weird for some of my foreign coworkers.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by colemickens on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:26AM (#18085380)
I can't tell if people defending Linus's behavior are unaware of how overly abusive it was (not "to the point"), or are intentionally misportraying it in this thread.

The things Linus has said on LKML would be fireable offenses at most companies and I'm having a mini anxiety thing at the number of people here who desperately want an excuse to be unrepentant assholes.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by iagovar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @01:19PM (#18086624)
We know that Linus is way stupid sometimes. But he is good, so we tolerate it. The cost of opportunity of not having him is greather than some people offended.

Even if he wasn't, I'd accept that from time to time people do make mistakes and behaves stupid, and life goes on.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:35AM (#18084887)
Way to miss the point entirely.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by torstenvl on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:53AM (#18085655)
As a minority, let me assure you that I'd much rather be treated equally than to be subject to your soft bigotry and low expectations. Don't handle me; it's insulting.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:29AM (#18084242)
> That would simply not fly at my company.

Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:50AM (#18084440)
Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness.

Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:19AM (#18084712)
> but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness

That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:35AM (#18084879)
Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:54AM (#18085074)
That may be, but there's a reason companies use metrics other than employee happiness to see how they're doing.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by conradfr on Thursday September 27, 2018 @03:27PM (#18087792)
As demonstrated in Amazon Fulfillment Centers.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by maxk42 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:25AM (#18084779)
This isn't a company. It's an all-volunteer force.

And educating people with four-letter words is a highly effective way to get people to fall in line with your culture, rather than allowing them to go around half-cocked all the time.

A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that.

20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by robin_reala on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:32AM (#18084856)
Or possibly the only people subservient enough to put up with that sort of behaviour are the ones that also fawn at your feet? I’d be out of a company like a shot and letting HR know why on the way past if a manager tried to pull that on me.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by BeetleB on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:58AM (#18085110)
>A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that.

>20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

I was once part of a volunteer group that had a lot of nastiness. I learned one thing from it. The way to get a group that is very harmonious and on the same page is to ensure the leader is a big enough jerk that whoever disagrees eventually leaves. Those who remain are of the same mindset as the leader.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:08AM (#18085212)
The toxicity is seeping.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by arayh on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:47AM (#18084404)
Absolutely! This reminds me of https://compassionatecoding.com/ - there's a lot to be said about this industry and the "cold" work environments that are associated to it. I support the compassionate coding movement. Software engineers should support and help each other improve as a whole. It creates a much better work culture and more effective team communication.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by alfredmuffin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:52AM (#18084457)
Every company needs to adopt this movement. I wish the HN community weren't so rooted in their toxicity, and just recognized the need for industry-wide change.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by furgooswft13 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:28AM (#18084824)
That's not a movement, it's a buzzword laden sales pitch for a consulting service.

Yes the industry needs change, but in the way of having less bullshit, not more.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by Iem6gaoc on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#18084763)
> Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

If empathy is a critical skill that can be developed, then it should be made part of the school curriculum and graded.