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Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:23AM (#18067080)
A shame that uber and the whole gig economy is so shit, circumventing basic employment rights and both minimum and living wages. I mean I like the basic idea and I agree that the taxi business needed the disruption, but it's opened the gates to people working well below a living wage because there's nothing else. That is, there's plenty of people that are willing to work below minimum wage because it's the only thing they have left. And companies - including Uber - are more than happy to offer that kind of work.
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by icebraining on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:27AM (#18067131)
Taxi drivers were already considered contractors and working for shitty wages. Uber just followed the existing model. In fact, it was worse, as drivers had to pay to work, by renting the cars with medallions, rather than being able to use their own.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/09/nyregion/driving-a-taxi-d...

The change for taxi drivers has only started to come after Uber was already making it big, e.g.: "For what the union involved says is the first time ever, the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) declared taxi drivers are legally “employees”"

http://www.peoplesworld.org/article/nlrb-declares-taxi-drive... (2015)

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by condescendence on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:01PM (#18068817)
The NYC model is rarely how taxi's operate.

My uncle was a taxi driver around the same time (maybe a little earlier?) and was paid a livable wage plus benefits.

>"There are so many drivers available that it's an owner's market," said Edward G. Rogoff, a professor of management at Baruch College who studies the taxi industry. "Drivers are competing for these low-prestige, low-pay jobs, which pushes their incomes down further."

You also missed the main part of the article. Simple stated there were too many taxi drivers. Now I don't know about you but if I were to have that many people willing to work for me its either the pay is good or working conditions.

This sucks because like the article mentions, it becomes an owner's market. On top of this it's also NYC. No taxi driver is gonna be able to afford many of the places they get fares from.

>"In '87, '88, you could make $100 a day, maybe more," said Sam Khan, a 37-year-old driver from Pakistan. But now, he said with a grimace, "maybe $60, $65."

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by Mediterraneo10 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:55PM (#18068749)
Not all countries have the medallion system (or that system the way it works in parts of the USA), and in some places drivers felt they were paid pretty adequately the way things were, and so they reacted very negatively to Uber drivers showing up and undercutting them.
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by stormbrew on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:51PM (#18069278)
In places where medallion or similar systems were in place, most of the protesters tended to be medallion owners. Who may or may not themselves be drivers, but even if they were were probably still deriving significant income from non-owner drivers renting their cars and medallions.

They're more like landlords than employees.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by kryogen1c on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:05PM (#18067566)
I don't understand this logic generally and in this case it makes even less sense. 10 years ago, Uber literally didn't exist. How, in any way, is Uber forcefully underpaying it's employees/contractors? People flocked to drive for Uber; where is the oppression here?

This is the same "Walmart doesn't pay its workers and destroys local businesses argument". People work there, and people shop there. Walmart didn't make anyone do anything, and neither does Uber.

In a free market, people do what is valuable to them. How can you say those people aren't? If it's not a free market, then how is it the corporations fault? Don't hate the player, hate the government.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by afterburner on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:16PM (#18067668)
In a completely free market, corporations are free to distort economic and labour policy so that poor unemployed people are desperate to get any job they can, regardless of how poorly it pays.

This is why minimum wage and other laws exist.

See also: race to the bottom.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by ascagnel_ on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:23PM (#18067735)
To add to this: if workers are underpaid relative to the cost of living in their area, they'll likely end up on some government assistance program.

Effectively, Walmart/Uber/etc get to double-dip -- they pay their employees less than a living wage, and based on the US tax structure, don't have to pay for the government assistance programs that their employees end up needing to make ends meet.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by eh78ssxv2f on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:42PM (#18067937)
> To add to this: if workers are underpaid relative to the cost of living in their area, they'll likely end up on some government assistance program.

But that was already the situation before Uber came to the market? For all we know, driving Uber might have moved some of the people less dependent on the government assistance programs.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by olalonde on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:44PM (#18068620)
> This is why minimum wage and other laws exist.

This is not a settled question in economics. The idea that minimum wage laws help the poor is at the very least debatable.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by sincerely on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:57PM (#18068772)
I would be interested in a counterargument because I am having trouble coming up with one myself.
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by brownra04 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:08PM (#18069440)
The Wikipedia article on minimum wage laws [0] has a pretty good overview of some of the most common arguments for and against. Really, though, the whole article is pretty interesting for a Wikipedia piece and illustrates the level of disagreement between economists over the effects these laws actually have.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Debate_over_conse...

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by malvosenior on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:41PM (#18069803)
Some jobs are viable at $8 /hr but not $15 /hr so the business have to eliminate positions to stay solvent. That means someone who could have taken the lower paying job now has no job at all.

Also, inflation. When everyone is making at least $15 /hr then that $15 means less than it used to. All costs of goods go up to match the new supply of "wealth". Burger flippers make $15 /hr but burgers now cost $10.

In more meta terms: manipulating the market is never easy if it's possible to do successfully at all.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by triangleman on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:43PM (#18069214)
Milton Friedman famously put forth an argument against minimum wage in his TV series Free to Choose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-BGi4NIFww

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by castlecrasher2 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:22PM (#18069011)
My opinion is that having a minimum wage influences people to not make their own target, since an authority figure essentially deemed one hour of work is worth X dollars. Removing the minimum wage would make workers think for themselves how much they should earn and I believe that inclusion in their earning process would lead them to plan better, work better, and therefore earn more.

Essentially, I believe that when the government thinks for the people like declaring a minimum wage the people tend to avoid thinking about it themselves.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by losteric on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:14PM (#18068942)
Free markets rely on educated consumers operating in a transparent market.

Ubers model works because they externalize a lot of operating costs to ignorant (under-informed) "contractors", and obscuring the economic realities from customers.

So I think it's fair to hate the player.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by alex_duf on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:40PM (#18067910)
That's assuming there's an infinite supply of jobs.

When you're in financial difficulty - say your 0 hour contract doesn't bring enough money to pay the bills - you'll take whatever terms and conditions Uber is giving to you. Because you need to fulfill your basic needs.

I don't think that many Uber drivers are doing it by choice, they just don't talk about it to avoid bumming clients and getting a poor rating.

I'd like the slickness of the Uber app with a bit more ethics and I would be a good client.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by kryogen1c on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:48PM (#18068013)
> That's assuming there's an infinite supply of jobs.

Not only did I not assume that, the exact opposite is true.

Uber _just_ created all of their jobs; they didn't used to exist. Everyone started working there because they wanted to. It's valuable to them to spend their time driving. It's not like Uber forced closed other companies at a 1:1 ratio and force hired their workers for less.

These are all voluntary transactions.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by nielsbot on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:30PM (#18068459)
If you're desperate you will "volunteer" to do certain things you don't want to do. That can be exploited.

Depends if it's a sellers' or buyers' market.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by twblalock on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:33PM (#18069111)
Would Uber drivers be better off today if Uber had never existed?
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by simias on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:10PM (#18067610)
I mean, if you're a libertarian that makes sense. If you're not then wonder about why things like minimum wage exists, surely if people are willing to work for less than minimum wage why stop them?
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by malvosenior on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:09PM (#18067607)
Isn't this a case against minimum wage laws? Obviously people's paychecks need to be paid from somewhere. Not all business models are going to work when you have to pay $15 /hr. So in that case, no job gets created and the person who could have done the work gets no money.

By removing the artificial market controls, people can voluntarily choose to get paid less, and make something (which is better than nothing).

I think people that complain about Uber not providing "basic employment rights and both minimum and living wages" don't really know what it's like to be poor. Talk to an Uber driver sometime, they're grateful for the opportunity to make some cash on their own terms.

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by Moodles on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:30PM (#18067809)
> it's opened the gates to people working well below a living wage because there's nothing else

Haven't you just walked into an argument for abolishing the minimum wage here?

(I'm not arguing for or against minimum wage. I'm just observing that the tone of your comment seems to suggest you don't like the idea, but this sentence seemed to be a good argument for it.)

Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by aaronblohowiak on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:13PM (#18067640)
In Germany, I used an uber-like app, having the same tracking and reputational semantics, but it hailed actual taxis. very nice.
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by chrisseaton on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:57PM (#18068106)
Whys that better than Uber though?
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by kidsnow on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:39PM (#18067896)
Could someone conceivably build a reference implementation FOSS client and server so that anybody could start their own Uber / Lyft. It would eliminate the friction to get going.
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:00PM (#18067512)
It's fascinating how you can fully spell out that Uber is giving people in a shitty situation a better life, and still have no doubt they're doing something bad!
Re:Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam by Razengan on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:56PM (#18069937)
It's certainly better than nothing; for both riders/guests/users and the drivers/hosts/providers.