News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by 3pt14159 on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @02:10PM (#18026345)
I've come to the conclusion that whatever is computerized is going to be leaked. Health records? Might as well open source them for all I care. Red team is tenacious and the steps you have to take to actually keep everything secure make you seem unreasonable.

I've moved on. It's more important to focus on election security and physical security at this point. Infosec is dead. Five years ago Bruce Schneier wrote a book called "Carry On" now he has one called "Click Here to Kill Everybody".

Just five years.

We're in a technological growth feedback function and we're unable to predict it.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by ergothus on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @02:23PM (#18026447)
Author David Brin has (relatively) long advocated that we have two options: shoot for privacy resulting in those with power able to access the "private" info, or have it open where everyone can access. He then argues for the latter because it minimizes rather than maximizes abuse. (I'm paraphrasing and summarizing, possibly poorly)

I struggle with being _comfortable_ with that idea, but I don't have a problem believing the technical accuracy of it.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by xevb3k on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:20PM (#18027386)
Interestingly (because the parent is about Schneier). IIRC Schneier argues against this.

The argument is that even if everybody has access to all information, only a small group is able to exploit that access effectively.

So, you still end up with a small group abusing their access to the information. You should therefore aim for privacy of sensitive information.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by cortesoft on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @07:06PM (#18028377)
Yeah, I think a good example of this is thinking about something like license plate scanning.

Technically, this is not taking advantage of any public information. It is just capturing images of things happening in public. Anyone could set up a camera and capture license plates as they drive through an intersection.

So is it totally fine for a police force to scan license plates at every intersection?

The question is complicated, because the effect on people changes when you do something that is not worrisome on a small scale in an automated way at a large scale. When you add in that the people doing it have a large amount of power over people and it changes it even more.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by komali2 on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @07:38PM (#18028523)
Well hold on, the difference there is the police can cross reference scanned plates against other databases the public doesn't have access to, yeah? Or is there some way to id plates against names? If there is I wanna know cause I wanna ID whoever knocked my motorcycle over
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by xevb3k on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:32PM (#18029074)
If you had near continuous location information for a license plate it would be relatively simple to use it to narrow it down to a small group of people.

I’d imagine it would be relatively easy to figure out where someone works and/or lives and just go find them.

Correlating across multiple public databases might make things even easier.

But I don’t think this is the point of the argument. The point is that those in power can gain more benefit from the information than the general population.

Let’s say all votes in elections become public. That information is more useful to a powerful political party than to the public at large, or a small unfunded group. If you don’t want that information abused, the argument goes, you should make sure it’s kept private.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by dredmorbius on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @05:04PM (#18027690)
In practice, the forced revelation of information makes individual privilege and power more important. When everyone has to play with their cards on the table, so to speak, then people who feel like they can be themselves without consequence do so freely -- these generally being people with support groups of like-minded people, and who are neither economically nor physically vulnerable. People who are more vulnerable to consequences use concealment as a method of protection: it makes it possible to speak freely about controversial subjects, or even about any subjects, without fear of harassment.

-- Yonatan Zunger, chief architect, Google+

https://plus.google.com/+YonatanZunger/posts/WegYVNkZQqq

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by WorldMaker on Thursday September 20, 2018 @11:34AM (#18033196)
For anyone curious for more information, Dr. Brin's largest work on the subject is the non-fiction collection of essays called The Transparent Society: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transparent_Society

Published in 1998, I think it's probably still the most fascinating work on privacy of the post-internet age.

More fun fictional explorations of the subject can be found in his novels Kiln People and Earth.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by cuboidGoat on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @03:08PM (#18026853)
I worked in a factory that produces critical parts for both the nuclear industry and the silicon fabs. Their main software stack is old dos software with a win95 front end bolted on running in compatibility mode with an integrated database that went obsolete in the early '90s.

I asked them what protections they took against hacking, and they told me that nobody would be interested in what they do, so they didn't have to spend any money on protecting themselves.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by jakelarkin on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @03:16PM (#18026909)
security by obsolescence is a thing too
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by FactolSarin on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:48PM (#18027583)
It's actually one of the security layers for America's nuclear arsenal

https://www.businessinsider.com/hacker-us-nukes-report-2016-...

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by cuboidGoat on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @06:49PM (#18028264)
Security by obsolescence isn't the thing where you just dump old code on internet connected computers and steadfastly refuse to do any form of technical assessment other then "Does it run?", due to the assumption that nobody would be interested in screwing you over, though.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by FactolSarin on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:49PM (#18027591)
Was that computer connected to the Internet? If not, then no problem.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by EvanAnderson on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:59PM (#18027661)
Define "the Internet". Do contractors plug laptops into the network with these "air gapped" computers? How about IoT devices? Printers? I can't recall who said it, but a venerable infosec practitioner once said "Think of an air gap as a very high-latency connection."
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by caymanjim on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @05:14PM (#18027770)
Air gapping is often "good enough" protection for all but the most sensitive and desirable targets, even if people plug things into them all the time. An air-gapped PC might get a virus that way, which could be damaging in some way, but it's not something that most companies need to worry about.

A counter-example is something like Stuxnet; that likely leapt an air gap, but it was exquisitely targeted for that scenario. I'd worry about this as a nuclear component manufacturer.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by FactolSarin on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @06:55PM (#18028298)
Stuxnet was spread via a USB stick. You know what doesn't have a USB port? A computer from 1995. :)

An ancient piece of air-gaped hardware is pretty bulletproof. I bet the NSA would have more trouble hacking it than a fully up to date install of <modern OS> that is on the Internet.

It's very possible the biggest threat vector is leaving the door unlocked.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by 3pt14159 on Thursday September 20, 2018 @08:19AM (#18031718)
Even though I'm largely against air gaps as a defensive measure, there is something to this. Though I think the breadth of the problem isn't properly appreciated. It's too dimensional. There are too many unforeseen interactions and complications with computers and the humans in the organizations that run them. Even leaving aside moles[0] people trust to easily and often have interests that are odds with their organization.

[0] Which, why should we? The world has moles.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by cuboidGoat on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @05:37PM (#18027915)
Yes, of course it was.

Anything with a network port was plugged into the lan, which was plugged into the free router that came with the business broadband package.

Which was also the only firewall and it was still on factory defaults other than the wireless password.

As far as I can tell this is more or less standard business practice in the small to medium enterprise sector here, which is to say, the vast majority of specialist engineering companies in the UK.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by darpa_escapee on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @05:54PM (#18027991)
Stuxnet.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by jugg1es on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @06:46PM (#18028249)
I work for a healthcare IT company that deals with tons of PHI (protected health information) and we have very strict security practices. New software is extensively evaluated at several points in the SDLC for security issues and access is tightly controlled. Engineers and CEOs have been held personally liable for major breaches (not my company!). Health records are WAY more protected than your SSN. If what happened to Equifax happened to a company like Epic, they would go out of business.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by rficcaglia on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:30PM (#18029069)
Epic is not hosted software, it is installed and heavily customized at each hospital. Epic doesn’t have a global db of all patient records.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by specialist on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @08:54PM (#18028887)
None of your systems store patient data encrypted at rest.

Inadvertent data breaches are inevitable.

The very best you could possibly do is access logs and auditing. Which of your customers do any kind of auditing?

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by sterwill on Thursday September 20, 2018 @07:59AM (#18031586)
Although at-rest encryption of health data is an addressable part of US health regulations, not a required one, it's almost always done because it's easy and effective. Most electronic health records are encrypted at-rest.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by specialist on Thursday September 20, 2018 @09:57AM (#18032466)
I should have been more clear.

I'm advocating Translucent Database techniques, where patient data is encrypted at the field and row (document) level. Much like a salted password file.

System level encryption still means the admins can still see the data. Therefore, breaches remain inevitable.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by paul_milovanov on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:31PM (#18029327)
Hold on, do you know for a fact that EPIC specifically doesn't encrypt data at rest? I'm not questioning your competence/knowledge, just trying to understand specifically what you're saying.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by specialist on Thursday September 20, 2018 @12:48AM (#18029854)
The database or file system is likely (hopefully) encrypted. I'm referring to record and field level encryption. Like this:

Translucent Databases http://a.co/d/5855TYO http://wayner.org/node/46

Think of how password databases don't actually store passwords. Instead they (should) be storing salted and hashed passwords.

---

Please see my other comment about plaintext demographic data vs using unique identifiers.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by jugg1es on Thursday September 20, 2018 @08:29AM (#18031795)
Literally every single system we have stores patient data encrypted at rest.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by specialist on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @08:50PM (#18028871)
I've worked on both election integrity and electronic medical record exchanges. I care very much about privacy.

Your conclusion is correct.

Medical records cannot be encrypted so long as demographic data must be stored in plaintext. Otherwise how would we do record matching (linking) across heterogenous systems?

The fix is to use universal identifiers. Once you moot the record matching problem, you can use translucent database techniques to anonymize patient data.

I don't expect the USA to adopt an official centralized universal identifier for people any time soon. And none of the 3rd party solutions (NSA, LexisNexus, ChoicePoint, Facebook, etc) are acceptable, for various reasons.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by Kostchei on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:30PM (#18029068)
Homomorphic encryption, anonomized data coupled with metadata, searching via k-Anonymity models.

I mean, sure it has a cost, some of this stuff is new, but to say "cannot be encrypted"... that's where the fun is- working out how to do it.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by paul_milovanov on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:33PM (#18029332)
Hold on, even if you keep the demographic data in plaintext, surely you can encrypt the actual HIPAA-protected data?
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by specialist on Thursday September 20, 2018 @12:52AM (#18029874)
If you figure out how to do that, please let me know. Maybe there's some new math or tricks since I worked in this domain.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by sterwill on Thursday September 20, 2018 @08:08AM (#18031642)
You can meet an at-rest encryption requirements in a lot of environments by flipping on disk-level, filesystem-level, or database-level encryption where the encryption keys aren't stored on that disk.
Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by paul_milovanov on Saturday September 22, 2018 @10:56AM (#18046209)
Exactly. Google has a nice internal solution where data at rest is encrypted with a record-unique (or bucket-unique) key and a separate system decides whether to give you that key based on whether you give it auth tokens that entitle you to access to that record. That way, having direct access to the datastore doesn't give you automatic access to everybody's data, and all access is auditable. (And data can be "deleted" wherever it has been replicated just by deleting that key for good at the centralized key store).

Obviously, some admins/sres still need to have full access to the key store, but that can be a very small group, as compared to a situation where "every Gmail engineer can read every user's email".

Edit: on reading the summary blurb from the "translucent databases" book link that @specialist posted, what I described above is very much along those lines.

Re:Equifax IT staff had to rerun hackers' queries to work ou... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday September 20, 2018 @01:45AM (#18030044)
Leaked is the best word. It doesn't even have to be hackers or outside forces. An individual on the inside maliciously or ineptly handling records is another way things will get leaked. And will is the right word. In the digital age it's not a question of if something will get leaked, but when. And as systems become more complex and companies more expansive this is only going to become more true. And I think this is the point of view people should make when deciding what information to yield to companies, or deciding on their position of things like 'surveillance for your safety.'