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Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by dsabanin on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:53PM (#17980161)
What's up with the critical comments in here? How many of the judgemental and jaded posters here donated anything close to this to a charitable cause?

Good deeds must be applauded, not shamed for not being better. Especially if the definition of "better" is made up randomly on the spot.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by tedivm on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:08PM (#17980334)
Asking who else has donated anything close to this is a bit silly considering most people aren't billionaires. It might be more fair to ask how many people have donated 1.2% of their net worth to charity, and I think the answer will surprise you in that a lot of people have.

A second question is whether or not this makes up for how Bezos has gotten his money and the potential damages on society that has. If I burn down a house and then donate to the rebuilding it's still a net negative. The systems that allow people to amass this much wealth need to be looked at critically to see if they really are benefitting society or are just causing increased problems.

As a final note Bezos is getting a lot of negative attention because he's made comments before about how hard it is to get rid of his wealth while seemingly ignoring a lot of really good ways for him to do so. It took years of negative attention to get him moving on causes like this.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by leesec on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:39PM (#17981727)
I don't think using a percentage as reference is useful in this case. There are a variety of reasons why giving 2 billion (even if it's 1.2%) is much different then giving a few hundred or thousand dollars. You have to be much more concerned about the overhead, how the money is being spent, who is managing it, etc... because even a 1% waste results in a loss of 200 million dollars.

Secondly, I don't know if anyone has really quantified how much damage or potential damage Bezos has done in his lifetime, and I would be surprised if it was actually net negative. What honest to god damage has he done? Some people have rough working conditions and are underpaid ( these people are not forced to work at Amazon). I agree that is bad and think they should be paid more and treated better. What did the world benefit though? Everyone gets generally good cheap stuff reliably within a few days to their doorstep, saving millions in man hours yearly.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by dsabanin on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:02PM (#17980829)
Have you donated more than 1.2% of your net worth to charity?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by tedivm on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:43PM (#17981190)
I donate more than 1.2% of my income each year to charity, and that amounts to a lot more than 1.2% of my net worth (it should be noted that people in my generation tend to have a negative net wealth due to student loans and being locked out of the housing market, which means most of them can meet this requirement by giving five dollars to a homeless person on the street if you want to use a more liberal definition for charity).

Specifically, I donate money to (and this is not in any particular order)-

* ACLU * EFF * NAMI * NAACP * BLM * NPR (local affiliate) * Between $40 and $100 a week directly to homeless people.

I also try to volunteer time as well.

What charities do you donate to, and more importantly why is that even relevant to a conversation about what responsibilities people with obscene amounts of wealth should have?

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:48PM (#17981257)
Yes, I do so every year.

1.2% is not some lofty, unrealistic amount if you are financially secure. The median net worth of Americans by age 55 peaks at $85,000 [1], which comes out to just under $20 per week. If you exclude home equity from net worth, half of Americans under 55 could donate 1.2% for less than $6 per week.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-average-net-worth-...

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by TuGuQuKu on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:39PM (#17981150)
Who hasn't???
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jahaja on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:06PM (#17980313)
The world isn't skin deep. There's a clear historical continuity to these appeasements.

A poor person giving half their bread to a sick neighbor should be applauded, however, the Church of old providing charity from the king while still promoting the king's divine right to indiscriminate rule should not be.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:57PM (#17980214)
No one's shaming him for not doing something better. They're shaming him for having a direct role in creating the problem this charity is supposed to resolve.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by NeonVice on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:02PM (#17980272)
How is Amazon creating more homeless people?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by djsumdog on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:16PM (#17980404)
Look at their home in Seattle. The influx of people is pushing up housing prices to pretty unbearable levels. It's not as bad as the Bay Area, but the homeless situation there has been bad for a long time.

The large Seattle companies also work in discount deals for housing, which is far from ethical or fair:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/is-it-hou...

People are critical because Amazon has rarely given to charity, or when they do it's something like letting a charity temporally use an existing building before they renovate it:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/amazons-donating-a-buil...

I mean, maybe we shouldn't be so critical if Bezos is legitimately concerned and they're doing something, but I can understand why people are skeptical based on their track record.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by skufuor on Thursday September 13, 2018 @04:59PM (#17982530)
And they're planning on permanently giving them space in one of the new office buildings.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-creating...

Disclosure: i work at Amazon.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by lev99 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:09PM (#17980337)
Increasing home prices in Seattle, where the median rent is $2,400 [0]. By bringing in people from out of state with high salaries Amazon is making the housing market in Seattle much more expensive as more people compete for a mostly static stock of housing. Zoning laws, mandatory parking, improved public transportation, affordable housing regulations, and new development could all improve the current situation so local and state governments play a role, but it would be naive to assume the largest private employer in the region didn't play a role in creating the current situation either.

[0] https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by corysama on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:49PM (#17980721)
:/ The math you are presenting is “One family gets a large raise. Another gets a slightly harder time finding affordable housing”. Multiply that by a large number and you get a large number of families cannot find affordable housing. But, a similar number got large raises. It’s not a universal win, but it’s still a net win. It’s not even a horribly skewed distribution.

If I could make a genie wish, it would be that there was a bunch of luxury condo&apt construction for the new residents so that none of the old residents would have any pressure to move. But, I can’t blame the lack of construction on Amazon.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by mrep on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:13PM (#17981500)
> If I could make a genie wish, it would be that there was a bunch of luxury condo&apt construction for the new residents so that none of the old residents would have any pressure to move.

Seattle has had the most cranes in the country for 3 years now [0] and so much new housing has been built prices recently went down [1].

[0]: https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/Seattle-three-...

[1]: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/smallest-s...

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:10PM (#17980896)
How is increasing inequality a net win? The situation you've presented is even somewhat zero-sum, i.e. the first family's gain comes at the expense of the second. That's exactly what we should be trying to prevent.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by corysama on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:29PM (#17981071)
It's not zero sum. One family makes more than before. The other makes the same as before. Net win. The extra money in the pocket of the first family is not coming out of the pocket of the second. It's coming out of Amazon's pocket.

The alternative is that no one gets raises. That's would be loss for a large number of families and no change for others.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:02PM (#17981398)
You are not presenting a scenario in which one family gains and the other stays the same, you're presenting one in which one family makes more money (gain) while the other makes the same amount of money but is less able to find affordable housing (loss).

It's not strictly zero-sum because the gains and losses may not exactly offset each other, but one agent's gains still come at the expense of another.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by corysama on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:27PM (#17981620)
I don't know what you are advocating. Amazon paid people a lot locally. That's usually considered a nice thing. As a side effect, that inflated prices locally. That's sad. So, to not be shamed by you, they should have been doing ambiguous something all along. What?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @04:07PM (#17982050)
I suppose I'm advocating that we structure our society such that one person gaining wealth does not make it more difficult for another to live their life. I'm pointing out that, in a vacuum, this specific scenario:

> One family gets a large raise. Another gets a slightly harder time finding affordable housing.

is something to avoid, not strive for.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by corysama on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:16PM (#17982688)
Sure. But, it feels like there is a lot of shooting the messenger here. There is obviously a fault in the housing market of Seattle. If there wasn’t, supply would have risen to meet demand. But, Amazon didn’t cause the fault. They just made it obvious. So, when shit gets bad, who does the pitchforks come out for? The ones who made the problem obvious.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by smileysteve on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:11PM (#17980902)
> Zoning laws, mandatory parking, improved public transportation, affordable housing regulations, and new development could all improve the current situation so local and state governments play a role

Wow! "Play a role" has an amazing undertone here; It's Amazon's fault for offering good salaries in Seattle; a better company would offer fewer jobs, at lower salaries, spread out (oh that's what's happening at the warehouses).

Local and State Governments (and the people they represent who are profiting from real estate in San Francisco and Seattle) should not be the distant second you're pointing at here!

Indeed, Amazon HQ2 is considered by many cities to be a giant opportunity for economic growth.

And this is to ignore that Amazon Seattle is located where a previously blighted community was.

Nay, I say, I've considered Seattle as having a higher cost of living since 'You've Got Mail' came out.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:10PM (#17980344)
Might be hard to do all those things you're proposing when Amazon has tremendous resources to mobilize against any proposed tax.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by songzme on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:11PM (#17980359)
X used to own a bookstore. It was good enough to put him in middle class. Then the culture changed, it was easier for people to read reviews online and buy, than to shop in book stores. His shop has to close down, now he drives for Uber and tries to make ends meet. He is no longer in middle class. Not homeless, but I'd imagine if there are more competition for unskilled labor, more people would be squeezed into homelessness
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by cgag on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:14PM (#17980385)
succeeding too much by being to useful and employing too many people, and failing to respect modern cities inability to grow
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by olivermarks on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:07PM (#17980322)
By centralizing giant swathes of the consumption economy to run through Amazon, destroying jobs at every step of the way. Sweden have banned Amazon so their local economies can flourish. I think this is good macro business logic for a nation state. https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-amazon-competition-ec...
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by Aunche on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:44PM (#17980673)
So Amazon gets credit for killing jobs, but no credit for creating jobs? Without a doubt Ikea has killed the small time furniture making industry, yet is listed as a "charity."
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by chillacy on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:20PM (#17980991)
My own company has been slowly getting killed by amazon in the past 10 years, but we’ve also killed countless brick and mortar stores along the way. Where will we draw the line? Are we to fight the newfound efficiencies of technologies like the Luddites?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by opencl on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:42PM (#17981180)
Sweden did not ban Amazon. Amazon just doesn't operate in Sweden (yet). People in Sweden can already buy things from the other EU Amazon stores.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by olivermarks on Thursday September 13, 2018 @04:55PM (#17982486)
I'm not sure that's accurate, I think there has been considerable political and therefore bureaucratic opposition to Amazon in Sweden
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:04PM (#17980292)
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/06/how-a...

In case you don't care to read an article they're just coming off an effort to kill a tax that would have affected them and which was specifically designed to combat homelessness.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by moises_silva on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:13PM (#17980377)
So shame on them as opposed to most of society that has an indirect role and we therefore are not part of the problem? Society keeps buying things from Amazon. We as society created Amazon. I don't have a lot of sympathy for big corporations but also dislike when individuals try to disproportionally blame them without taking a look at what we do at an individual level to make a difference. By almost any standard I'd consider the average HN'er 'rich' (myself included) and benefiting of the same conditions that are in some way also responsible for the same problem (tech bubble, big tech corporations) Amazon is allegedly guilty of.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by yeukhon on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:01PM (#17980257)
Isn’t this “problem created by” anyone who is rich then?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by moises_silva on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:04PM (#17980296)
And conveniently the definition of 'rich' for almost everyone is anyone who has more money than me.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:10PM (#17980348)
You could make that argument as well, but I'm specifically talking about Amazon's underpayment of workers and efforts to kill taxes that would fund efforts meant to curb homelessness, among other things. Some of the other replies to my comment have links to articles about these.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:05PM (#17980301)
You certainly would not have to look very hard to find people who would argue that
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by selimnairb on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:07PM (#17980325)
Yes. We should tax billionaires out of existence. This level of wealth and power accumulation is as unseemly as it is dangerous to our democracy and economy.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by stass on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:14PM (#17980384)
Taking other people money by force is even more dangerous for democracy and economy.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:00PM (#17980813)
Taken to its logical conclusion, this idea means we shouldn't have any government at all.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by chillacy on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:27PM (#17981050)
Not sure if that’s the line of reasoning. A well known danger of democracy is rule by mob. For instance a tough thing to get right is protecting rights of minority groups. If everyone voted for their own direct benefit, we’d just be locking minorities up and taking their assets with power of the majority. Luckily doesn’t seem to happen much.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:32PM (#17981098)
If the government taking things by force, or by the implied threat of force, is bad, then taxation is bad, and if you don't have any kind of taxation you don't have a government in any meaningful sense.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by chillacy on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:58PM (#17983021)
I think taxes are a bit better because you're also agreeing to pay your own money (vs only taking other people's money only as the original commenter said). I had a different reading of "taking other people's money by force" as meaning specifically voting to tax a minority group more just because you can. This is based on the GP comment being "We should tax billionaires out of existence" as opposed to "taxes are immoral"

OP can clarify if necessary.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Thursday September 13, 2018 @07:28PM (#17983605)
That isn't taxing a "minority group." It's just progressive taxation, an idea almost everyone accepts to some extent. "Taxing billionaires out of existence" could be achieved simply by increasing marginal tax rates.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by leetcrew on Friday September 14, 2018 @08:15AM (#17986617)
billionaires are literally a minority group. they certainly don't need protected status, but, whether or not it is "good" to take their money, they can't effectively oppose this just by voting.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Friday September 14, 2018 @04:51PM (#17990830)
The argument for preventing one person to amass that much wealth is at least in part that it gives them tremendous political influence. The preferences of Sheldon Adelson arte far more consequential than an average voter living in the same district, for instance. Appropriating the language of "minority" discrimination, which traditionally refers to marginalized groups, to talk about people who are very rich strikes me as distasteful.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by leetcrew on Friday September 14, 2018 @08:13PM (#17992119)
one could just as easily make the argument that academics and social theorists have appropriated a word that has a commonly understood statistical meaning. no one objects to calling the alawites of syria a "minority group", even though they are relatively privileged and literally control the country. especially in the context of a (putative) democracy, it makes sense to use the word in the statistical sense.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:54PM (#17992517)
By your standard criminals are also a minority group.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by leetcrew on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:32PM (#17992850)
i mean yeah, in addition to actually being disenfranchised.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by emodendroket on Saturday September 15, 2018 @08:58AM (#17994115)
Nonetheless, most of us would agree that some abridgement of rights is acceptable for this "minority group." This is why I don't think talking this way is helpful.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by sdinsn on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:08PM (#17980885)
Let's not pretend that homelessness has nothing to do with addiction and mental health. Stop avoiding the real issues- it's harmful when everyone pins Washington's problems all on Bezos.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by jakelazaroff on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:13PM (#17980918)
Who's pretending that? I said Bezos and Amazon play a direct role in creating poverty and homelessness, not that they alone are culpable; obviously there are many factors. Let's also not pretend that homelessness has nothing to do with our economy and political systems.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by rifung on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:10PM (#17980341)
> What's up with the critical comments in here? How many of the judgemental and jaded posters here donated anything close to this to a charitable cause?

I mean it's much easier to donate to charitable causes when you have more than enough for yourself and your family so that's not an apples to apples comparison, but he's also donating less than 1.5% of his wealth. Have I donated that much? No but I think I'm close and I still don't even have enough for my own emergency fund.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by onetimemanytime on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:14PM (#17980380)
>>I mean it's much easier to donate to charitable causes when you have more than enough for yourself and your family so that's not an apples to apples comparison, but he's also donating less than 1.5% of his wealth

So he should donate 99% on that cause and today? No tomorrow, no other worthy causes? Bezos, alone, cannot solve all the world's problems. He should be commended for his donation and willingness to help solve the problem. Haters gonna hate...they can't sleep well at night unless they do that.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by pinewurst on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:03PM (#17980280)
I don't think there's any proof yet that Bezos' promised contribution is any more real than the ludicrous Zuckerberg foundation.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by imglorp on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:06PM (#17980314)
Hopefully Gates and Buffet will get Bezos and Zuck onboard with the giving pledge. Those two will have a tangible impact on humanity. Page and Brin wouldn't hurt, either.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by maym86 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:06PM (#17980312)
It because the source of the money has cynically evaded tax for years and pays some of his workers less than they need to live such that they are supported by food stamps. The working conditions in Amazon factories are notoriously tough.

It's hard to take charitable giving seriously when someone has run their company in a cutthroat manner for years at the expence of some of the poorest workers.He could do better with his own businesses first.

I hope it works out and does some good but I hope this explains to you why people are cynical.

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by TuGuQuKu on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:37PM (#17981140)
I donate much more than 1.2% of my net worth to charity, and every 2 weeks to boot. Somehow I also manage to do it without publicizing it on dozens of media outlets every time or blowing tens of millions on a disgustingly wasteful luxury lifestyle. But where's my army of loser internet sycophants?
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by DoreenMichele on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:49PM (#17981267)
I'm one of the people being critical. My definition of "better" is hardly made up randomly on the spot.

If someone intentionally gave people AIDS, then volunteered to cover the cost of their pain meds, would you say "Ah, what a great guy!" Or would you go "Oh, really now? Puh-leez!"

As someone who sees the systemic problems that cause homelessness because I have studied it for many years, I'm going "Oh, puh-leez!"

Your framing of the issue is incredibly hard to engage because it presumes those years of study do not exist, aren't a valid basis for my opinion etc.

(Or a slightly more accurate metaphor: They have AIDS, they keep screwing people and refusing to hear they shouldn't and are generously offering to pay for pain killers, but absolutely refuse to stop screwing people.)

Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by s73v3r_ on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:15PM (#17980945)
Because he's contributed much to the problem, especially with the wages he's paid to his warehouse employees. We'll see if he's actually able to contribute to the solution.
Re:Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless by BurritoAlPastor on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:12PM (#17980368)
$2 billion is, like, 1.5% of Bezos's net worth. I would like to hope that many of us have given at least 1% of our net worths to charity.