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Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by DeepYogurt on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:24PM (#17937363)
Can anyone explain the shortage of 14nm chips? This article simply mentions that most readers are aware of this fact and I am unable to find supporting articles.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by ksec on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:35PM (#17937855)
They have their first taste of 70M unit per quarter 14nm self fabbed Modem for the next iPhone cycle. They were suppose to have 10nm online which should leave room for those 14nm orders. Since 10nm are delayed, Intel had to move some of their 14nm chipset back to 22nm. as well as limiting supply to some segment of 14nm chips.

And I wouldn't be surprised more customer are looking at EPYC anyway, every microcode update from Intel has resulted in % of performance lost, at this rate we will be back to Broadwell era soon.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by DeepYogurt on Friday September 07, 2018 @09:57PM (#17938965)
Interesting. I would not have thought that competing contracts would have been an issue (and I guess intel didn't either). Many thanks for the insight.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by tristanj on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:35PM (#17937421)
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/14nm-processor-intel-short...

Because Intel's 10nm process is delayed, their 14nm fab is overbooked leading to a chip shortage.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by dman on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:42PM (#17937469)
But isnt the positive spin on that they are selling every chip they could make?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by hajile on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:47PM (#17937502)
No.

Two fabs output more chips than one fab. Intel has deals with other companies for both 10nm and 14nm production and some of those deals are undoubtedly based on Intel moving their own chips to 10nm. At capacity and unable to increase as expected means customers move to other companies that make compatible, competitive products. Once those companies move, they may not come back.

This is quite a bad position to be in.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by dman on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:54PM (#17937554)
Are there other companies that are using Intel fabs with real volume?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by chx on Friday September 07, 2018 @08:51PM (#17938760)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/25/17614930/apple-iphone-201...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/14nm-processor-intel-short...

> That ramp is occurring as Intel is also bringing production of its 14nm XMM 7560 modems online for Apple during the second half of this year. The new Apple contract, which consists of millions of modems for iPhones, will certainly be a top priority at Intel's fabs.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by chasil on Saturday September 08, 2018 @09:01AM (#17940662)
I had heard that Apple will be dumping Intel modems after that contract is complete, with Mediatek the likely new partner. This might have something to do with the Qualcomm lawsuit over Apple breaking NDAs by sharing sensitive information with Intel.

Assuming this to be so, Apple may not be allocated the highest priority.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by slededit on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:09PM (#17937662)
Altera pre-acquisition. But it wasn't working too well.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by Soundest on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:38PM (#17937874)
Altera is hilarious, they shit the bed with Stratix 10 - delayed by years and bet the house on Intel. Intel bought them and then totally shit the bed on what was meant to be the process shrunk version of Stratix 10. What a way to go...
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by slededit on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:05PM (#17938011)
Not hilarious if you are stuck with ancient 7 series parts as the only cost effective option. They just recently graced us with a Spartan 7 that uses the same die as their artix parts with the gigabit transceivers not bonded out. How generous.

We need competition in the FPGA space again.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by kevin_thibedeau on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:01PM (#17938291)
Their original roadmap was to provide a low density, low cost Artix as a replacement for some of the Spartan price point and that never materialized. This latest dogbone is just to get around Vivado's lack of support for anything before 7-series and the age of the last ISE.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by dnautics on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:21PM (#17937756)
Ericsson 5g, or so I hear
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by kingosticks on Saturday September 08, 2018 @12:40PM (#17941571)
Wasn't the rumour that this was Nokia 5g (https://www.semiaccurate.com/2018/07/02/intel-custom-foundry...)?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by chx on Friday September 07, 2018 @08:47PM (#17938749)
Moving is incredibly hard though, it takes year plus to adjust to a new fab.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by princekolt on Friday September 07, 2018 @10:05PM (#17938990)
But Intel has been dropping the ball over and over again lately. Some customers might take something like what's reported here as the last straw.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by landryraccoon on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:51PM (#17937533)
They have a competitor. If OEMs switch to AMD because they can’t get parts from Intel those sales could be gone forever.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by chasil on Saturday September 08, 2018 @09:04AM (#17940672)
Don't you mean TSMC, followed by Global Foundaries?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by landryraccoon on Saturday September 08, 2018 @11:19PM (#17944155)
I wasn't aware that HP and companies that manufactured servers and PCs purchased directly from the fabs. You can buy server class CPUs from AMD, can you get them direct from TSMC?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by chasil on Monday September 10, 2018 @11:33AM (#17952523)
AMD doesn't fab their own chips anymore.

I understood that TSMC would be manufacturing the next round of AMD processors, since Global Foundaries didn't have 7nm ready.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by landryraccoon on Monday September 10, 2018 @11:52AM (#17952642)
We're talking past each other. HP isn't going to switch from Intel to TSMC because HP doesn't design CPUs. They make servers. Their vendor is going to be AMD not TSMC or Global Foundaries. You're saying Global Foundaries has fabs that make AMD's chips but I'm looking at it from a business/marketing perspective not who's making the hardware. The customer never sees a "Global Foundaries" label on the CPU, it's going to say AMD or Intel on it.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by jarym on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:48PM (#17937513)
Spin maybe... but they weren’t planning for the 10nm process CPUs to be delayed and they weren’t prepared for the increase in demand on the 14nm parts. Poor management decisions have collided here it would seem.

Not the same as when a manufacturer says they’re making as many as possible and they’re selling out.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by fpoling on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:48PM (#17938493)
Well, for the past 40 years Intel managed to deliver node shrinks mostly on time. Management got used to that and thought that 10nm troubles were temporary, not something that required new design like rumored 10/12nm hybrid replacing original 10nm plans.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by cryptonector on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:27PM (#17937800)
Intel might not have been able to make alternative decisions anyways. Cost might have made them choose between 10nm sooner or more 14nm now, and not betting on 10nm could easily have cost them more. Hard to say without insider info.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by naasking on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:26PM (#17937786)
But not every chip they projected or promised to make, so not so great really.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by agumonkey on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:46PM (#17937496)
it is as a first layer analysis, but it's a fault for such a large company not to have fallback buffers to avoid short supply
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by martinpw on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:06PM (#17938016)
Interesting snippet in that article - anyone know more about these new power standards?

Intel's recent 300-series chipset refresh found its new chipsets coming to market with the 14nm process, which is necessary to meet California's new power standards.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by wmf on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:14PM (#17938341)
Probably https://energycodeace.com/download/21326/file_path/fieldList... which requires workstations and gaming PCs to implement Energy Efficient Ethernet and to use less than 10W in sleep mode. Maybe Intel's old chipset doesn't support EEE (although it seems like nobody uses the Intel NIC anyway).
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by Gibbon1 on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:14PM (#17938068)
I can't say anything about Intel and 14nm, but there is a big shortage of all electronic components since 18 months ago.

Microcontrollers are all backlogged, chip capacitors are also backlogged. PCB Fabs are backlogged, assembly houses at least in the US are at capacity.

What I suspect is demand for electronic 'things' by poor people in China, India, and Africa are outstripping supply chains across the board.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by th0ma5 on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:33PM (#17937410)
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by yuhong on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:25PM (#17937371)
It is already hitting the news now. The 10nm delays don't help here.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by wyldfire on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:06PM (#17937643)
Probably due to poor yield.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by jagger27 on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:48PM (#17937925)
What's amazing (to me anyway, as I learn more about the fab game) is how Zen could suffer the exact same defects per wafer as Intel and produce considerably more viable CPUs per wafer. The "Core Complex" or chiplet architecture was such a brilliant longterm play by AMD—it still blows my mind.
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by dragontamer on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:11PM (#17938046)
The difference is closer than you'd imagine.

Intel's XCC die is 694mm^2 for a 28-core, while Zen / Zeppelin is 213mm^2 for an 8-core. Intel's XCC 28 core is around 25mm^2 per core, while AMD's Zen is 26.6mm^2 per core... suggesting a slight advantage to Intel!

Furthermore: Intel's XCC die has 28-cores. When defects come into XCC, Intel can simply disable those cores and sell them for cheaper. For example, Intel's Xeon Platinum 8160 is a 24-core. Presumably, 4-cores are defective but Intel can still sell it for $5000 or so.

So a defective product would require a manufacturing defect somewhere critical. But individual cores can most certainly be disabled during the manufacturing process and sold as a lower tier product, like the Xeon Platinum 8160

As such, Intel definitely has good yields, at least on 14nm production.

------------

The main advantage is that AMD's strategy works way better when yields are poor due to a new process being not fully understood. But as defect rates drop, Intel's monolithic strategy seems to have slight advantages over AMD's. (Remember: Intel's cores are slightly superior in IPC, have slightly faster caches, and AVX512 enabled).

AMD's strategy is definitely good, but I don't think Intel is really that far behind.

Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by MrRadar on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:38PM (#17938437)
In addition to the benefits of getting working more working chips per wafer, don't chiplets also provide the benefit of being able to independently bin each chiplet, significantly increasing the effective production yield of high-clocking high core count chips relative to monolithic fabrication?
Re:Intel can’t supply 14nm Xeons, HPE recommends AMD Epyc by catdog on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:45PM (#17938230)
Intel did not have a lot of competition in recent years so why design for maximum yield when you can just slap a high price tag on the thing? AMD on the other hand needed to assume that they would not be able to compete in raw performance so what's left is being as cost effective as possible.