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Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by WorldMaker on Friday September 07, 2018 @02:36PM (#17936602)
Just One valid complaint of harassment/abuse should be more than enough for any system to remove a driver. The problem shouldn't be number of complaints. We seem to equate quantity with veracity in a lot of system designs, but those are absolutely different things. On the one side we see complaints that shouldn't need volume/quantity to make a difference to prevent further harassment, and on the other side we see brigading tactics where volume is easy to bot/sheeple and has no necessary basis in veracity.

Quantity !== Veracity

Quantity is a metric that is easy to program and to understand for systems design, so we use it as an easy stand in, but we need to get better at finding Quality, not Quantity.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by ellard on Friday September 07, 2018 @03:05PM (#17936837)
Validity of a complaint is also a hard problem to solve as it's mostly one's word against another. Crafting a well-worded negative review isn't difficult and there's been enough anecdotal stories from systems such as Yelp where a customer will threaten to leave a horrible review on a business if they don't cater to their every whim that using one valid-looking review to remove a driver would also be seen as unfair.

The number of negative reviews serve as a way to help strengthen the signal that a driver is truly "bad" in some way. Of course, the quality of those reviews should also be taken into account.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by WorldMaker on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:40PM (#17937887)
It's absolutely a hard problem, but I think it's one that we _need_ to solve. Quantity is too easy a solution, too easily gives us a false sense of security, and we've let that be a default for too long, collectively having just about stopped there.

So yes, I don't have any easy answers. I think this a problem for our industry, and probably one we need to collectively solve sooner than later, giving how antagonists are using our systems against us.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by losteric on Friday September 07, 2018 @10:21PM (#17939038)
I think some form of government-backed authentication is inevitable for the commercial web... digital drivers licenses. Maybe that'll finally get us off social security numbers too.

Not something I want to see or use, but I think it's the only way to go about review-backed sites like Yelp or Uber. It's impossible to generally validate statements, but at least a persistent identity lets services decide whether to trust the person.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by markdown on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:46PM (#17937916)
What about having a "black box" in the vehicle that records audio and deletes itself within an hour of the ride if either party doesn't flag the ride to Uber/Didi?
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by TylerE on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:50PM (#17938251)
Dead people can’t file complaints
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by markdown on Friday September 07, 2018 @11:56PM (#17939323)
This is about flagging unacceptable behavior and removing bad drivers way before someone is murdered. In the Didi cases, the drivers had already had multiple reports against them. The reports weren't taken seriously because they were basically hearsay.

Anyway, why even bring that up if the solution is just to store the ride audio for a bit longer.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by romwell on Friday September 07, 2018 @06:24PM (#17938125)
>Validity of a complaint is also a hard problem to solve as it's mostly one's word against another.

Ah, if only in the year of 2018 there existed a way to verify what kind of interaction happened during each ride.

Perhaps in a form of a phonograph record, or similar, that could be engaged when the ride starts.

If only.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by baby on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:53PM (#17938518)
If only we didn't care about privacy.

If only.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by losteric on Friday September 07, 2018 @10:32PM (#17939069)
For the past 3 years, every yellow cab I have ridden has had an always-on camera.

I like it. If I wanted privacy I would call a friend or drive myself... cabs are for convenience. Security footage protects both drivers and riders from abuse, which translates to lower costs and greater availability.

Cab companies like Uber already track routes and riders, that's the valuable and privacy-sensitive information... security footage? Doesn't add much.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by romwell on Friday September 07, 2018 @09:53PM (#17938954)
Right, because public transportation is totally where we have expectations of privacy.

I take it you never go shopping either; if you do, I have bad news for you.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by GW150914 on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:56PM (#17938534)
If only we didn't care about privacy.

In someone else’s car with a perfect stranger? I truly don’t care about privacy in that situation, and having an expectation of privacy there is delusional. In my car, I want the option for as much privacy as being surrounded by windows in a public space allows, but the whole point is that this would not be my car.

Come on.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by orcs on Saturday September 08, 2018 @01:35AM (#17939588)
If I was one of these drivers damn right I'd have CCTV cameras in my car. It's not just malicious reviews they have to worry about, potentially they have to worry about malicious complaints to the police too.
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by darawk on Friday September 07, 2018 @03:09PM (#17936863)
Do you have some sort of proposal for determining complaint veracity in a reliable way? I'm sure the entire world would like to hear it.
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by briandear on Friday September 07, 2018 @03:40PM (#17937070)
Record every ride.
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by WorldMaker on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:42PM (#17937893)
I wish I did have a good solution. It's absolutely a hard problem to solve, but it does seem like a problem (if not _the_ problem of our times) that we _need_ to solve as systems designers, before things get worse.
Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by kevindqc on Friday September 07, 2018 @04:07PM (#17937258)
Isn't that a very slippery slope? Maybe it should be enough to trigger extra monitoring/background check, especially since the driver has a lot of power over the customer, but just fire the driver without any due process?

What's preventing anyone who doesn't like you from getting you fired?

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by WorldMaker on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:36PM (#17937860)
In this exercise, we're creating the process (the system is the process). I'm pointing out that establishing "due" is the hard part. We keep defaulting to "quantity of complaints" as if it were a due process, instead of actually establishing due processes. I'm asking all of us, as an industry, as a peer group, to question this default. If it is a slippery slope, we're already caught on it.

Yes, establishing due process is hard, but "X% of respondents complain" has never been a due process (it hurts people when it takes too many complaints to fix the thing [and sometimes with things like harassment and murder One is already too many complaints], and it hurts people when it is easy to get X% from a mob). We need to get out of the mindset that just because computers are great at tabulating quantity and numbers are "objective" that doesn't make that the right process, and certainly doesn't make that the due process.

Absolutely, too, we should include workflow steps like "extra monitoring/background checks" in our processes. Often those get ignored because they likely require people/labor and when designing systems we don't always want to include those elements.

Re:Beleaguered Didi Is Said to Lose $585M in Just Six Months by baby on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:53PM (#17938514)
I can't believe that you wrote this comment trully believing that one negative advice is enough to take down someone. Should one negative review kill a movie? Or a restaurant? Or a company?