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A comment on Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack. Parent comment

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dalbasal on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:51PM (#17911167)
The experience of owning an 8 (or 18) year old car has a big impact on how I view quality and there are as many people in my shoes as there are in new car buyers'. But.... us old car drivers opinion isn't that commercially important. Resale-ability impacts new car sales to an extent, but a lot of manufacturers (looking at you peugot & renault!) are willing to make cars that have no value by year 8-10.

Mercedes & Tesla trade at the higher end, where just the impact on perceived quality (in addition to the quantifiable financial benefits of buying a car that will maintain value) is important. OTOH, EV are already knowingly buying a car that ranks poorly on that front. Who wants to buy a 2015 model EV in 2018? Range improvements alone would kill the price.

So... not sure it matters too much yet. Going forward.. who knows. I think tesla may already be "in for a penny, in for a pound."

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rthomas6 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:34PM (#17911586)
I just bought a 2015 Leaf, and it was because it was so absurdly cheap. Yes, the range isn't great (only about 90 miles), but everything else is fantastic. I paid $11k for something that feels worth $20k.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by cobookman on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:10PM (#17911903)
Brand New Chevy volt is ~20k new with dealer and tax rebates. Chevy offers 0 down 0% financing.

There's a fair argument that the volt is a better economical buy than the used leaf.

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rthomas6 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:39PM (#17912142)
True, but 20k is not 11k. And that's the out-the-door price with lower than average mileage bought by someone who didn't want to haggle. You can get a 2015 Leaf with 30k miles for 9k.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jfrankamp on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @04:45PM (#17912633)
Can confirm! I got a 2015 for $9600, with 24k miles. It is fantastic and has more than _twice_ the trunk space of the volt which was a deal killer for the volt. We are a two car family and the other car is gas only for long range & occasional dual usage. We're jamming the miles on to the ~free-to-operate leaf as much as we can though.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by da02 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:57PM (#17913592)
Any downsides other than range?
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by sokoloff on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @08:12PM (#17914007)
Stock tires are uninspired and the car doesn’t handle particularly well, but basically “no; they’re great!”
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by madengr on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @10:08PM (#17914572)
The torque is what amazes me, for something considered an econo-box.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jfrankamp on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @04:31PM (#17921645)
I don't have any yet downsides yet, but if interested I'd suggest browsing the leaf owner forum https://www.mynissanleaf.com/ which has a lot of leaf hacker information & a wishlist section. Essentially my takeaway was: leaf owners love their cars by and large.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rasz on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:24AM (#17915482)
That $11K could put you in 2005 S600 with enough money to spare for 2 years of fuel.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rthomas6 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @11:44AM (#17918984)
You're not accounting for the difference in cost of maintenance. Which would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher for a 2005 S600. Oil changes, brakes, etc, all of which do not apply to the Leaf, plus all the things that are statistically very likely to be wrong with or break on a 2005 vehicle.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by madengr on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @10:05PM (#17914558)
Bought a 2015 at 19k miles for $8,500. Definitely a good deal and a pleasure to drive.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rthomas6 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:03PM (#17919173)
I'm envious, it seems I got swindled! Oh well.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by madengr on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:48PM (#17919675)
No, I just got very good deal. Most of what I saw for sale is about what you paid.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by tigershark on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:57PM (#17913594)
How can something that has 90 miles of range be worth 20k$ literally defies my comprehension...
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rthomas6 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:01PM (#17919151)
Well, it depends on what you want a car for. :)

If you need a commuter car to get you to and from work every day, and errands/visiting people in town on the weekends, getting one with a fuel cost per mile of 15% of normal (or even free if your work offers charging) makes a lot of sense. The 90 mile range is rarely a limitation at all.

If you need a car for frequent long trips out of town, the 90 mile range would be a huge hindrance. In that case I would discourage you from buying a 2015 Leaf.

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by close04 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:01PM (#17911306)
> (looking at you peugot & renault!) are willing to make cars that have no value by year 8-10

But if we're being honest the money you lose after a decade is a lot less then the money you saved when you purchased it.

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by gsnedders on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:16PM (#17911446)
Is that true, though? Here (UK) Kia and Hyundai offer seven year warranties, and most of their products are competitive against Peugeot/Renault.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jacquesm on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:41PM (#17911646)
They mostly offer those long warranties because they severely damaged their brands with the quality of the products they rolled out initially. So now they have to give huge warranties to offset the meme that Hyundai and Kia will not survive even a few years out of warranty without major work.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by kbenson on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:59PM (#17911795)
It apparently is a viable path for a company to enter the auto market though, as I think they've transitioned well over the last couple decades into respectable auto-makers with standard quality. That probably makes them a good purchase since you can still get those warranties for the time being. Honestly, I thought they would be phasing them out a decade ago.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jacquesm on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:07PM (#17911874)
I think the brands that did this best are Audi and Skoda, they went from pariah status to nearly best in their class. Both were classic examples of turnaround management by VW.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rjsw on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:59PM (#17912288)
... and back to pariah.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jacquesm on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @05:05PM (#17912800)
Not judging by the sales numbers:

https://www.motor1.com/news/238839/vw-sales-record-q1-2018/

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by emptyfile on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @03:55AM (#17915920)
No, not really. More popular than ever if anything.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by mongol on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:17AM (#17915189)
I was not aware that Audi had pariah status..?
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jacquesm on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:21AM (#17915208)
Before the VW take-over they had what was probably the worst rust issues in the industry with the exception of Fiat.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by inferiorhuman on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @03:31AM (#17915786)
Unintended acceleration…
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by meguest on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:57PM (#17911780)
Hyundai and Kia and now starting to challenge even the German car manufacturers with their i30N and Stinger cars.

In fact, they specifically poached a number of former executives from BMW's M division to lead those projects.

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by close04 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @03:50AM (#17915897)
But I thought we were talking about different things. Mainly the value of the car after 8-10 years, long after any warranty expires. Low priced cars don't have much resale value after a decade because they had lower value as new. And that's a lot of money saved with the initial purchase.

But when it comes to warranty you should take care, people imagine this is like the warranty on their phone. It's not, basically it says the body won't rust. The rest is covered by dozens of other clauses that more or less just guarantee than almost nothing gets replaced under warranty.

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by icc97 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:17PM (#17911967)
It is an issue with resale value. But I drive about 12k miles per year, and the battery should last 500k miles. My last ICE car survived maybe 120k miles before being a write off. There's a good possibility that I'll only need to buy one Tesla for the rest of my driving days.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rootusrootus on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:33PM (#17912090)
Or you could buy a Lexus. They seem to be good for a million plus miles.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by icc97 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:43PM (#17912173)
Yes true, but a half million miles will do and I'd rather spend the time in a Tesla.
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by ProfessorLayton on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:26PM (#17913400)
Auto makers very much care about resale value since it is pretty much the entire basis upon which a lease is priced, which is a huge deal considering ~30% of new cars are leased.

Furthermore, almost 80% of electric cars are leased [1]. When electric cars aren't being made for compliance reasons, or to lower the overall emissions of an auto maker's fleet (and thus subsidized in some way), then resale value will be of critical importance.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/why-most-...

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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by gpetukhov on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @10:52PM (#17914706)
that's only in the US
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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by Godel_unicode on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:23AM (#17915019)
It's also exclusive of Tesla, who doesn't release lease vs buy numbers
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