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Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by ChrisSD on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:33AM (#17892283)
It's not like they haven't got a history of doing this. Remember when the iPhone had "no chance" of "any significant market share"?[0]

[0] https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:57AM (#17892396)
FTA: "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance. It's a $500 subsidized item. They may make a lot of money. But if you actually take a look at the 1.3 billion phones that get sold, I'd prefer to have our software in 60% or 70% or 80% of them, than I would to have 2% or 3%, which is what Apple might get."

I wonder what the maximum penetration was for Windows OSes on phones.

"...my 85-year-old uncle probably will never own an iPod, and I hope we'll get him to own a Zune."

What's a Zune? /s

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by londons_explore on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:48PM (#17892683)
To be fair, after over a decade of trying, Apple still only has 15% market share.

If Microsoft had the other 85%, they'd be in a good position.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by lotsofpulp on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:43PM (#17892998)
Why should Apple care about the other 85% of the market if all the profit margin is in the 15% they have?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by AmericanChopper on Saturday September 01, 2018 @07:41PM (#17894506)
This is called market segmentation, it’s one of the hardest things to get right in a business, and I think Apple have done a pretty good job of it. Every decision in a business has an opportunity cost, you can’t make products that will meet the needs of everybody in a market, and you can’t try to sell products to everybody in a market. It’s hard because segmenting your market is essentially deciding that you don’t want to sell to some customers, but it’s more important to look at what each customer is worth rather than how many you can get in total.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by DennisAleynikov on Saturday September 01, 2018 @02:05PM (#17893127)
I guess apple is totally okay with being a minority of the market then since they're doubling down on proprietary sensors and apps that only work in their own ecosystem.

they can ignore the 85% if they want. The 85% of the market will ignore them back in turn.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by debaserab2 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @03:13PM (#17893452)
They "double-downed" on that decision ten years ago, and now they are the most profitable company in the world. I think it's safe to say whatever bet they made paid off handsomely.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by samstave on Saturday September 01, 2018 @10:34PM (#17895193)
If you look at the success of apple - they do one thing really really well; make products for people with money to spend. Apple doesnt care about anything other than customers who can afford to pay, and are willing to pay, for their products.

Apple makes good products, but they arent without frustrations or limitations, and you'd better accept these if you want what you do get from apple products.

You know that the engineering will be in the top ~90%, for example. What is the 10% or so that apple fails on WRT to engineering; accessories, flexibility/upgradability, vendor-lock-in on software. All of which simply lead you to spend more money on supporting having apple products.

Accessories: How much money have you spent on chargers, cables, headphones, cases, screen-protectors, screen repairs?

Flexibility/upgradability: Want more storage/ram? Buy the next model - no upgrades.

Software: Fewer OSS options for software/apps.

There are certain things I like about apple, and certain things I hate. But the primary thing I hate is that you cant do much without paying a premium...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by DennisAleynikov on Saturday September 01, 2018 @09:31PM (#17894965)
it's paid off handsomely and cut off apples prospects of expanding beyond the 15% market share they currently enjoy. sure owning 15% of the global smartphone market makes them money but androids 85% share ensures googles dominance in the sector unless apple lowers some of its hardware walls and turns them into bridges.

#buildbridgesnotwalls

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by debaserab2 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @10:06PM (#17895096)
What does market share matter when you've captured the part of the market where all the significant margins are?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by DennisAleynikov on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:58PM (#17898604)
A company that trades like a railroad company shouldn't be gloating about how little of the market share they want. there is no room for apple to expand with their rich people first strategy. Eventually you run out of new rich people to sell your products to.

Apples investors do not expect them to grow much more unlike Google or Facebook which both act as monopolies in both the smartphone and online markets. I'm sure apple knows what it wants but it sure doesn't show any abition to take over the world with their products.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by mrep on Saturday September 01, 2018 @04:21PM (#17893735)
It also spares them scrutiny from antitrust laws which I am sure they appreciate now with the recent Android fine.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by IshKebab on Sunday September 02, 2018 @05:01PM (#17898615)
Because eventually developers will stop bothering with iOS apps.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by graeme on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:16PM (#17892829)
Thouh its about 45% in the US, and similar levels in OECD countries.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by CamperBob2 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:04PM (#17895300)
If Microsoft had the other 85%, they'd be in a good position.

People forget that they effectively do have most of that 85%. Every Android installation kicks back some money to Microsoft in the form of patent royalties.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @07:33PM (#17894473)
None of the 85% of Android manufacturers are in a good position fighting over scraps and Google still pays Apple over $2 billion a year to be the default search engine on iOS.

Market share doesn’t lead to profit.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:20PM (#17892860)
What londons_explore said. Windows OS didn't succeed, but the comments about the iPhone seem to have been basically accurate...?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:11PM (#17893894)
the comments about the iPhone seem to have been basically accurate

If by "basically accurate," you mean "not accurate at all."

It's a long way from 2% to 45%. Not many companies get to underestimate their competition's potential marketshare by a factor of 22 and survive.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by Buge on Saturday September 01, 2018 @07:15PM (#17894407)
Apple has 15%, not 45%. So it's 5-8x, not 22x. And the original quote appears to be about all phones, not just smartphones, so the factor would in fact be even lower.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by girvo on Sunday September 02, 2018 @12:29AM (#17895555)
Apple has 45% in most OECD countries. Even higher in some of them, IIRC.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by Buge on Sunday September 02, 2018 @02:45AM (#17895936)
Is the original quote talking only about OECD countries? I think it's talking about worldwide.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:43AM (#17897147)
It was partially accurate. Statistically no one bought an unsubsidized phone for $600. Apple lowered the price to $300 within 6 months and then went for the standardized subsidized model the next year.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by isostatic on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:29PM (#17892578)
<i>What's a Zune?</i>

It's the think starlord got at the end of guardians of the galaxy 2.

Still, at least it didn't suffer like the ipod -- it had No wireless and Less space than a Nomad. It was "Lame".

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by mattkevan on Saturday September 01, 2018 @02:05PM (#17893128)
But you could ‘squirt’ songs from one Zune to another.

The Zune was a litany of poor decisions, but that word choice must have been the worst.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:09PM (#17893889)
I think you are correct.

Though, I also found the word "squircle†" amusing, and still use it when the opportunity arises. The Zune was the first time I'd heard it used outside of math nerds trying to out-nerd each other.

† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squircle

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by mixmastamyk on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:40PM (#17894270)
From the company that brought you “wince.”
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by isostatic on Sunday September 02, 2018 @11:48AM (#17897377)
Ahh, the line up at the turn of the century -- Windows Cement.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by mattkevan on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:56PM (#17894320)
And MicroSoft
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by awucs on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:22PM (#17892536)
People often quote that, but I don't think he was necessarily wrong. What happened wasn't really so much between Apple and Microsoft, as Google giving away Android. That made all the other, arguably better, offerings redundant. Also letting Apple take a lot more market share because of quality and fragmentation issues. Almost no one makes any money from smart phones. Microsoft is probably fourth in terms of profit (from patents and such) behind Apple, Google and Samsung. Though Microsoft might have lost more in terms of influence and maneuvering.

Addition: Which part, if any, are the downvoters objecting to? From the people I have talked to in the industry that is exactly what happened and why a lot of companies got out of it.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by ChrisSD on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:41PM (#17892649)
The iPhone was beating MS phones before Android was even a thing[0]. They were certainly way more than "2% or 3%" in the markets they operated in. I can't see how Ballmer's statement was even slightly correct.

[0] https://www.macrumors.com/2008/02/05/iphone-with-28-of-u-s-s...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by awucs on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:59PM (#17892752)
I don't think "2% or 3%" was very realistic, but you have to remember that when the iPhone first came out it wasn't very good. I didn't have 3G, GPS or App Store (nor a couple of other things). Apple was certainly ahead, but the market also wasn't ready nor big at that. When it actually matured there were a couple of solid offerings including from Microsoft, which among other things had arguably better design than Android. But at that point the market was moving on. The non-Apple market was no longer about selling the operating system or phones but apps, ads, components or accessories. If people want to go "Haha Microsoft" I guess that is fine, but they didn't lose to Apple.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by IkmoIkmo on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:17PM (#17892838)
> (nor a couple of other things).

Some other fun ones to mention:

didn't let you copy/paste text (for the first 2 years of iPhone), didn't let you record video, and didn't let you make a selfie while looking at the screen. (no front-facing camera)

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by vxNsr on Saturday September 01, 2018 @10:20PM (#17895153)
didn't let you make a selfie while looking at the screen. (no front-facing camera)

To be fair no smartphone did in the first couple years.

didn't let you copy/paste text (for the first 2 years of iPhone)

I got the iphone right after this shipped just by chance, and I couldn't understand how anyone lived without it. Also the had just added the "task switcher" carousel and the precursor to the control center, both features I used heavily and was surprised to learn didn't exist just a few months prior.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by mrep on Sunday September 02, 2018 @02:22AM (#17895881)
> I didn't have 3G, GPS or App Store (nor a couple of other things)

I bought the first iphone on the day it came out and I believe most phones did not have 3G at the time, almost all didn't have GPS (no real use case as navigation apps didn't really exist for phones), and most just had crappy App Stores.

> iPhone first came out it wasn't very good

Unequivocally false! It did everything a normal phone did fine. However, it did something no other phone came close to offering and it singly handley made it the best mobile device. It had an astoundingly intuitive and fast UX for browsing the web combined with an unlimited data plan. That's why I convinced my parents to drive me to the apple store so I could buy it despite the high price (they had to reduce the price by 200$ soon after because it was so freaking high (400-500$ for a phone in 2007)). The phone and app stuff was all moot. I wanted to be able to browse the web just as well as I did on a computer anywhere and everywhere and the iphone was what completely revolutionized that.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:49AM (#17897168)
I bought the first iphone on the day it came out and I believe most phones did not have 3G at the time, almost all didn't have GPS (no real use case as navigation apps didn't really exist for phones), and most just had crappy App Stores.

Sprint had been advertising its “Vision network” since at least 2005.

“Sprint Navigation” powered by Telemachus was a J2ME app that was an add on service in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeleNav

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by fulafel on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:24AM (#17896162)
iPhone's competitors did have GPS & 3G: http://archive.fortune.com/2007/10/04/technology/nokia_N95.f...

(The timeline varied a lot by your country - I saw the iPhone available a year later than N95)

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by fjsolwmv on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:55AM (#17892389)
And when the Web was irrelevant.

Bill Gates and patent troll Nathan Myrvhold wrote a while book unironically displaying their utter lack of vision about the industry. Their while business is a mix of making bland weak copies of more popular software to run on their decades old Windows entrenchment, Xbox, and a few nice keyboard and mice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Ahead_(Bill_Gates_b...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:02PM (#17892424)
I read an old magazine article a few weeks ago where Bill Gates was talking about how the internet isn't necessary outside of businesses. That having a computer use a phone line to dial up to a central server once or twice a day is all anyone needs. This was back when 2400 baud was considered super fast.

Steve Jobs may have had some bad qualities (many of them irrationally amplified in the "Jobs-bad-Woz-good" revisionist history SV jealousy echo chamber), but he was one hell of a futurist.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by danso on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:07PM (#17892457)
What revisionist history?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by nailer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:58PM (#17892743)
A lot of people discredit Jobs' creative vision due to disliking his personality, and, if they're engineers, like to overemphasize Woz because he's an engineer.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by colordrops on Saturday September 01, 2018 @04:16PM (#17893717)
Maybe 10 years ago that was true.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by nailer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:39PM (#17894012)
What do you think changed those people's minds? My feeling is that in the years post Jobs' death negative stories about his personality have been increasingly common.

For the record: I believe Jobs definitely deserves the credit, I'm just observing the mud that has been slung his way.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by danso on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:27PM (#17894223)
Stories about his negative side are likely more common because people feel more free to talk about them, now that Jobs, being dead, can no longer respond or retaliate against people with grievances, such as the daughter he disavowed [0].

I perhaps unfairly read negative connotations in your use of "revisionist", but I see nothing wrong with adding Jobs' uglier side to the historical record. It doesn't change what he accomplished, and it's something we can learn from. I do question the idea that Woz has been irrationally overemphasized. By the time the iPod was dominant, and a year before the iPhone, Woz felt so left out of the historical record that he published his autobiography to set the record straight, particularly about the misconception that Jobs himself invented/built the Apple I and ][ machine. Even then, Woz gives clear credit to Jobs for having the entrepreneurial sense and vision to make Apple a company, whereas Woz was perfectly content to work at HP for all his days.

After the iPhone, Woz became even more a part of Apple's ancient, forgotten history. He was a bit character in the Jobs' movies came out, and AFAIK, no movie yet has been made about Woz's life.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/sep/01/daughter-stev...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @07:02PM (#17894338)
I think you and I see eye-to-eye on Woz. I feel like there's been another uptick in idol worship when it comes to him in the last few years.

As for Jobs, I was thinking more of his technical abilities. The Woz-worshippers putting him on a pedestal seem to feel it simultaneously necessary to denigrate Mr. Jobs' technical side.

Jobs knew a hell of a lot about computers. More than I, or anyone I've met, ever will. It's clear reading old interviews with him that he knew his stuff, all the way down to the circuit level. But these days the conventional wisdom is that Woz built everything and Jobs was the equivalent of P.T. Barnum.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Did he personally know how to program 68000 assembler? Maybe some, or maybe not. But did he know how the chip worked? Absolutely. And more importantly, he picked the right kind of smart people and let them (largely) do their thing. And he did something that rarely happens these days — he gave them personal credit for their technical achievements.

When I read his biography a few years ago, it reduced my respect for him. But these days, reading archives of first-hand documents and interviews, I have more respect for him than before.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by gscott on Saturday September 01, 2018 @09:04PM (#17894846)
There are a lot of videos of Jobs at NeXT computers doing meetings that are fun to watch where you get to see his deaper understanding.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by nailer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @08:00PM (#17894583)
I didn't use the term revisionist, I just felt like I understood where OP was coming from. People act as if Jobs' harm towards others takes away from his achievements - that's the revisionist part - when in reality those things are orthogonal.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by ianai on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:48AM (#17892348)
They also spread plenty of FUD around all things Linux too.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by jacquesm on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:19PM (#17892518)
It went quite a bit further than just FUD.