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Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Someone1234 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:55AM (#17877238)
Absolutely. And the depressing part is that SOME parts still could have been shared between the different aircraft even in a more modest proposal (e.g. warfare systems). They just decided to go that extra mile, and wind up with an aircraft that likely won't ever save money and is too complex for its own good.

I hope we're done with manned aircraft after the F-35, and it is all drone swarms from here on out.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by bertjk on Thursday August 30, 2018 @12:50PM (#17878232)
I've thought that drone swarms are an "obviously" good idea, but that assumed that the communications/navigation were not easily spoofed. Then Iran captured one of the US's most advanced drone, pretty much intact. Now I'm not so sure.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Tobba_ on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:55PM (#17878983)
The idea of drone swarms doesn't go well together with aerodynamics and basic physical intuition. If you shrink an aircraft down, the aerodynamic cross-section (i.e the drag force) scales with the area (scale^2), but your engine thrust is going to drop roughly by the decrease in volume (scale^3).

So you end up losing maximum airspeed and fuel efficiency (in terms of the mass you're moving) the smaller you go. Unless the drones in your swarm were really big, it doesn't work out.

Although, I imagine we'll see some smaller, unmanned jet fighters in the future (assuming someone figures out how to control something like that remotely, or autonomously). A smaller aircraft has the advantage of a smaller radar cross-section and being more difficult to hit. Doing away with the pilot cuts out a lot of weight and frees up room for a larger engine and fuel tank, offseting the downsides of the smaller size somewhat. There should be a sweet spot where that works out.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by sawjet on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:10PM (#17880281)
Shape is the major determining factor for radar return, not size. From Ben Rich's Skunk Works-

>I really wanted a photographer around for historical purposes to capture the expression on Kelly’s big, brooding moon-shaped mug when I showed him the electromagnetic chamber results. Hopeless Diamond was exactly as Denys had predicted: a thousand times stealthier than the twelve-year-old drone. The fact that the test results matched Denys’s computer calculations was the first proof that we actually knew what in hell we were doing. Still, Kelly reacted about as graciously as a cop realizing he had collared the wrong suspect. He grudgingly flipped me the quarter and said, “Don’t spend it until you see the damned thing fly.” But then he sent for Denys Overholser and grilled the poor guy past the point of well-done on the whys and hows of stealth technology. He told me later that he was surprised to learn that with flat surfaces the amount of radar energy returning to the sender is independent of the target’s size. A small airplane, a bomber, an aircraft carrier, all with the same shape, will have identical radar cross sections. “By God, I never would have believed that,” he confessed. I had the feeling that maybe he still didn’t.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by trhway on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:28PM (#17881724)
>with flat surfaces the amount of radar energy returning to the sender is independent of the target’s size.

it is basic geometry. Like a flat mirror, no matter the size, will reflect to you the same Sun spotlight (to be precise - as long as the mirror is bigger than 32 arcminutes as seen from the receiving position)

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by engi_nerd on Thursday August 30, 2018 @08:24PM (#17881991)
Yup, shape is the biggest thing you can control, then radar absorbing and reflecting materials.

One of the big anecdotes from the early days of stealth aircraft development in the 1970s is how at some wavelengths the Hopeless Diamond shape wasn't visible to range radars at all. During one test, the range radar guys went absolutely crazy trying to detect the shape -- which was a pole model, not even flying yet -- and were about to just give up, when suddenly, there it is on their screens, plain as day. Awesome, the Hopeless Diamond lost its stealth! Or not, because what really happened was a bird landed on the pole model.

That's the power of your aircraft's shape.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Someone1234 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @03:36PM (#17880002)
> If you shrink an aircraft down, the aerodynamic cross-section (i.e the drag force) scales with the area (scale^2), but your engine thrust is going to drop roughly by the decrease in volume (scale^3).

Why would we shrink drones down? You read drone swarm and assumed small, but most swarm proposals are using drones of a similar size as today or even large in some cases. They're swarms because of the way they interact with one another, and overwhelm enemy defensive systems, not because they're small.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by cameldrv on Thursday August 30, 2018 @06:27PM (#17881352)
Yes, but the parasitic drag scales with velocity squared, and the induced drag scales with mass. Shrink the aircraft by 2 in all dimensions, you're fine on induced drag, you just need to slow down by a factor of 1-sqrt(2) -- 30%. Structural weight will also be much less. You also aren't carrying the weight of a pilot cockpit, ejection seat, etc. You don't have the drag penalty from the canopy either.

You do need to duplicate a lot of systems, but with modern electronics, these are a lot lighter and take much less power than before. The swarm aspect also allows for large synthetic apertures instead of a big single radar aperture in the nose of one aircraft. Swarms can also deploy cheap unguided weapons, because they can get very close to a target without the worry of losing a pilot and a $100 million airplane. The structural advantages of being small can also be exploited in an unmanned vehicle in that they can sustain much higher G loads than a large airplane, and with no pilot to black out, they will be much more agile in evading missiles.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Tobba_ on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:02PM (#17880223)
"swarm" means large numbers by definition, otherwise you have... well, plain-old coordination. Large numbers of F-35-sized aircraft is flaunting economics in the face a quite a bit (so I'm sure the US military loves the idea).
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by bonesss on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:09PM (#17880798)
We already have large numbers of F-35 sized aircraft, and are dedicated to having a current stock for the forseeable future, so the economics are already proven.

The issue is not that any given drone is expensive. The issue is that any given manned vehicle with roughly the same profile will involve the same-ish hardware along with expensive life support and safety systems, and a super expensive pilot, and super expensive logistics and possible recovery missions. Plane for plane the drones let us do more with less, justifying their investment during ongoing appropriations. Human pilots will always have a role, but will never be disposable in the way a drone can be.

And, yeah, "swarms" because there is no cookie cutter monolithic answer to what unmanned military craft should look like... Low speed ground hugging smart missiles, ocean based spy capsules in mesh networks, slow speed support craft, high altitude recon craft, in theatre air fire support, air-to-air combat drones, and orbital UAVs can all coordinate. All we know is ever increasing automation and standardization is intersecting with decreasing costs and requirements... very fertile ground for mass production.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by tlb on Thursday August 30, 2018 @03:04PM (#17879716)
Aircraft drag is largely from the wings producing lift, which scales with weight (l^3).

The drag from the fuselage does scale as l^2, but most drones have small fuselages since they don't need room for a pilot and (for fighter planes) a big glass canopy, and lifting drag dominates.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by pfschell on Thursday August 30, 2018 @02:48PM (#17879563)
Your comment assumes "drone" means anything like we have today. Any fighter designed in the last 40 years could be made substantially better by removing the pilot and everything necessary to keep him alive and in the fight.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by browsercoin on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:05PM (#17880750)
How would manned fighter jets counter an adversary like in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGAk5gRD-t0

You can see the swarm of drones that could absolutely wreak havoc and out pilot humans with AI advancement.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by tim333 on Friday August 31, 2018 @06:56AM (#17884481)
That drone swarm is dropped from a fighter and they don't go very fast or probably have much range. The was to defend would be to stop the fighter flying over your target. I'm not sure it dropping drones would be any more effective than dropping guided bombs in the traditional way.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by noobermin on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:43PM (#17881055)
When in the near future are we going to need drone swarms for anything?
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by erikpukinskis on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:22AM (#17882933)
Defending from attacks by terrorist drone swarms?
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:02PM (#17880221)
doing away with the pilot also allows the air craft to execute extreme maneuvers that would instantly kill a biological pilot inside...
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by stcredzero on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:32PM (#17878749)
Air superiority basically means being able to deny airspace to your enemy's forces while ensuring the safety of your own air assets. What if we developed swarms of drones to the point where both sides could ensure the destruction of anything flying in contested airspace, but not ensure the safety of anything flying?

Maybe warfare will return to a static mode, like WWI, but with much deadlier weapons, including automated AI area denial tanks and swarms of suicidal aerial drones.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by sitkack on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:42PM (#17878846)
At the same time it will shoot sub-prime mortgages directly into the Wells Fargo accounts of the enemy. Interesting times indeed. If WW1 was facilitated by the telegraph, WW3 will be lubricated by Twitter.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:52PM (#17881131)
if you are joking this is humorous... but this is also serious reality that you have commented about, it is a feasible thing with sufficient sophisocation... ...the economic system is a vital leverage point...
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by hindsightbias on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:05PM (#17880246)
The capabilites to deny airspace to something like an F-22 would be pretty high/expensive. AA missiles are expensive to buy, deploy and maintain and they probably haven't gotten cheaper over time. Their true effectiveness in a peer-to-peer contest is unknown or only known to a select few with access. Drones would likely not be cheaper than AAM.

But swarms could change the whole anti-personnel/troop exposure calculation, so it might make mute using super-platforms for air support. Flying IEDs is a lot easier to imagine than an F-22/35 killer (that are in the air, at least).

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by stcredzero on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:32PM (#17880470)
Drones would likely not be cheaper than AAM.

Right. In a way, that's part of the point. AAM are constrained to me munitions. They are expensive, but need to be far cheaper than the aircraft they are launched from, because the missiles are meant to be expended and the aircraft is meant to return. Swarms of suicide drones running tactics of area denial could be made at many different levels of capability and expense.

make mute

(Make moot.)

Flying IEDs is a lot easier to imagine than an F-22/35 killer (that are in the air, at least).

AAM are already flying explosive devices. Drones might well still carry AAMs, but be able to operate in a "mutual destruction" mode, sacrificing themselves to make a shot on a more expensive aircraft. AI programmers for fighter drones might well build in economic decisions. "Suicide for the kill, but only when the target is more expensive than yourself."

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:54PM (#17881143)
they have been imagined and created and used in venezuela...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45077057 [dupl]

...also, i wonder what a wardrone does to a fighter jet when its titanium chassis is sucked into the engine :-/

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by 15155 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:51PM (#17881834)
Considering the fact that organic geese will handily destroy aircraft turbines, I'd hazard to guess that a metal drone loaded with fuel and explosive armaments would also do a fair bit of damage.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by rch on Thursday August 30, 2018 @02:05PM (#17879093)
That pretty much sums up the endgame with Anti-access Area Denial (A2/AD) strategy:

https://www.sto.nato.int/SitePages/newsitem.aspx?ID=3546

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:08PM (#17880270)
its happening, its not maybe [probably]...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45077057

from daily mail[meh], but a counterpoint and illustration of the weaponization of information that is happening... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6027507/Venezuelan-P...

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by oh_sigh on Thursday August 30, 2018 @02:46PM (#17879547)
The comms are encrypted with rotatable keys, so Iran would not be able to spoof that kind of traffic even if they capture a device.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by greedo on Thursday August 30, 2018 @03:49PM (#17880115)
They don't need to spoof your comms to deny you said comms. All they need is a good jamming system. If you have no comms to your drone, then you're toast.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by oh_sigh on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:13PM (#17881640)
Sure, but they don't need to capture a drone to figure out how to jam its radios.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by ant6n on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:33PM (#17878755)
multi-spectrum laser communication!
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by greedo on Thursday August 30, 2018 @06:40PM (#17881430)
Clouds...
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by tomatotomato37 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:26AM (#17877488)
>I hope we're done with manned aircraft after the F-35, and it is all drone swarms from here on out

That's just going to result in a "multi-purpose" drone that simultaneously carries comm systems for the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Civilian Corps, CIA, FBI, and that one experimental group established in the 90s to test communication by aurora borealis. Never underestimate the power of the boondoggle.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Bartweiss on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:18AM (#17877415)
> SOME parts still could have been shared between the different aircraft

Maybe it's just too much time with software talking, but this feels like the intuitive approach. If you have one task with three cases, use a standard frame and customize the part that changes. But if you have three distinct tasks, plan for three approaches and pull out common requirements into a shared pool - whether that's a utility class or a parts depot.

Doing requirements-first designs for each role and then looking for opportunities to standardize some parts might get you an unpredictable amount of savings, but it'll save some money and get you three working planes. Doing standardization-first design and hoping you can customize for each role after gets you... about half a plane and a broken budget, apparently.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by jacquesm on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:24PM (#17880924)
> I hope we're done with manned aircraft after the F-35, and it is all drone swarms from here on out.

I hope we will be done with such devices entirely.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:46PM (#17881085)
...i think this will be the new mutually assured destruction[m.a.d.]... we have nukes because the other guys have nukes, thus niether side actually uses them...

AI war drones are a step sideways into a new flavour of m.a.d.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by kjeetgill on Thursday August 30, 2018 @08:15PM (#17881947)
They're not. Mad worked because any single use was substantial and unforgivable. For better or for worse, this does not apply to "AI war drones". We've already seen them drop bombs on caravans of civilians and miss their targets in asymmetric war zones, and they can only get more precise.

Any outrage we wanted to see hasn't just been there and can only decrease.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:07AM (#17882885)
the AI F-35 would be a different type of war drone than the predator the predator drone is a pigeon carrying a firecracker compared to what is coming...
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by _Codemonkeyism on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:10AM (#17877364)
My gut feeling is the US got lucky, with a high chance of drones after the F-35. France (Rafaele) and Germany (Eurofigher) might not be so lucky and need another manned fighter in between. UK with a F-35 / Eurofighter mix not clear to me.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by robin_reala on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:18AM (#17877421)
BAE’s building the Tempest for the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by r00fus on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:54AM (#17877712)
From das Wiki: "Tempest will be able to fly unmanned, and use swarming technology to control drones. It will incorporate artificial intelligence deep learning and possess directed-energy weapons.[7][8]"

Really? We can't even get self driving cars right and BAE thinks we can have a fighter with lasers that controls a swarm of drones? Going to be an epic letdown when it first rolls off the line.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Skunkleton on Thursday August 30, 2018 @12:17PM (#17877905)
Unmanned does not mean self-flying. And even if it did, self driving is a much harder problem than self flying. You have rent a swarm of drones today if you wanted to.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by r00fus on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:14PM (#17880834)
I'm pretty sure they mean like Predator drones not your COTS hoverbots. Doing all that in a tactical/adversarial situation means the likely of catastrophic failure is high.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by Skunkleton on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:27PM (#17881715)
What do you mean? Are you saying we lack the technology to fly drones in formations?
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by r00fus on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:29PM (#17886868)
Do you think formation is all that's required in battle? That sounds like a very sunny-day scenario.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by 15155 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:55PM (#17881858)
> We can't even get self driving cars right

Air vehicles are substantially easier to make autonomous than road-borne vehicles that must intermingle with massive numbers of hazards, unpredictable circumstances, laws to abide by, life to preserve.

Airspace is, by and large, empty. For where it isn't: it's strictly controlled by other means.

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by hinkley on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:01PM (#17878353)
First demo: two drones will fly into the laser beam, roast themselves, and crash land on something embarrassing.
Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by noir_lord on Thursday August 30, 2018 @01:34PM (#17878766)
> crash land on something embarrassing.

These days that's the whole of the UK (and I say that as someone from England).

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by m1573rp34130dy on Thursday August 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#17880199)
What does that future look like? According to Northrop engineers, it is tailless, stealthy, and packs a laser cannon. http://fortune.com/2015/12/15/northrops-fighter-jet-laser/

also has AI capabilities for interfacing with the pilot...

[Re:] sharing of parts, there could be a series of "shells" and an AI drone core that can eject, so as to let the shell burn in to the ground when it is "kacked" said AI core should be autonomous and plug and play with other shell types such as boats tanks and android mechbots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drevil_million_dollars.jp...

Re:F-35 Program Cutting Corners to “Complete” Development by tabtab on Thursday August 30, 2018 @04:03PM (#17880229)
Re: What does that future look like?...it is tailless, stealthy, and packs a laser cannon.

And the pilots are sharks.