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Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by yostrovs on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:01PM (#17859844)
Try searching for "American inventors" or "American scientists" on Google and tell me if you notice anything odd.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by patorjk on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:36PM (#17860259)
I'll admit, that does seem a bit odd. Everyone else is playing dumb, but they're being disingenuous. From what I see, on both lists, there's only 1 white male in the first 10 results, and in both cases they're not in the top 5. It certainly looks like a curated list and they've gone out of their way to make sure there's representation for a wide array of people.

Is this bad? Should they have done something different? I don't know. I guess it comes down to what you expect when you search for those terms, who is searching for those terms, and if these lists have proven to be helpful to those searching for these terms.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:55PM (#17860459)
Everyone else isn't playing dumb Trump is just living it.

As someone else already insightfully said results for American Scientists results a result set an awful lot like African American Scientists whereas US scientists or United States Scientists returns a results set more like you would expect.

In 2015 google photos was classifying black people as Gorillas that wasn't on purpose either.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16882408/google-racist-go...

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by patorjk on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @01:19PM (#17860701)
> Everyone else isn't playing dumb Trump is just living it.

Trump is just living it? Why did you add that part? I pointed out that the results looked odd. When I opened up the comment section, every other comment was saying nothing was odd. Those comments you're referring to didn't exist yet. Now that I've seen them, yes, they do bring up an interesting point.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm not a republican. And nothing I said indicated that Google was out to get conservatives. There was no reason to bring up the Google image story or say anything about Trump in your reply.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @02:31PM (#17861491)
The title of the story is

"Google Attacked by Trump With Claim It Is Burying Conservative News" I was referring to the subject of the entire discussion not you or your politics. I was trying to be clever by replying to your statement AND the topic simultaneously.

Google images misclassifying black people as gorillas, as well as google instant answers providing erroneous and prejudicial information are examples of situations in which we could discover meaning where none exists in data generated by an algorithm.

It seems vastly more likely that the words american inventors appears many times in documents that begin african american inventors than google specifically tweaking that query to increase diversity the same way I don't think google meant to convey that black people were like gorillas or that Obama was king of America

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by yongjik on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @01:56PM (#17861094)
It has a plausible explanation. People searching for Oppenheimer or Gell-Mann don't type "American scientists", they just type "Oppenheimer" and "Gell-Mann". And a website talking about Oppenheimer doesn't spend much time about his being American---after all, that might be the least interesting fact about Oppenheimer's life.

OTOH, I'll bet there are websites that talk about, say, "George Washington Carver, an American scientist you have never heard about."

That said, the quality of curation seems rather poor.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by mc32 on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @03:05PM (#17861858)
If you go to google.de or google.jp you get a diff selection to the same query “anerican scientists” (in local language).
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by yostrovs on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:01AM (#17890132)
Why aren't there more Scottish American or Italian American or Jewish American inventors in the list though?
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by ABCLAW on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @05:00PM (#17862836)
Try searching for "USA inventors".

Oddly, when your search isn't a substring of "African American Inventors" you don't get weird results.

It's almost like the search algo isn't perfect.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by dagenix on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:09PM (#17859934)
Would you care to further explain your point and how that relates to the article at all? Bonus points if you can do it without saying something racist or already debunked.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by ramblerman on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @03:46PM (#17862218)
I would wager it's not the default list resulting from their algorithms, and was in fact explicitly manipulated to present the list you see now.

The original article claims something similar albeit on a different search result.

the underlying idea is that google is not just using pagerank and algorithms to show us the current state of the internet. But rather is adding their own bias to push up / down certain results.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by dagenix on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @05:54PM (#17863266)
An idea for which absolutely no proof is offered. "Im seeing what I consider to be an insufficient number of white people" does not prove or provide evidence that the results were either hand curated or created with some sort of nefarious purpose.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by ramblerman on Wednesday August 29, 2018 @03:23AM (#17866349)
> "insufficient number of white people"

That is unfair. This result is very different from a search like "USA inventors" which is semantically similar and it is an interesting discussion to have, why that is. I make no claims about what the results 'should' look like from a societal perspective.

And ultimately I agree with your criticism, it was too hasty on my part to claim google did this purposefully. Some of the ideas in the sibling threads offer very plausible alternative reasons which could have caused this difference.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by asdkhadsj on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @04:56PM (#17862802)
> the underlying idea is that google is not just using pagerank and algorithms to show us the current state of the internet. But rather is adding their own bias to push up / down certain results.

One thing I've wondered with stuff like this is why we assume Google is the root cause here. Mind you, I've switched all my products away from Google, so I'm not defending them, BUT;

Reddit users frequently take part in manipulating Google search results for the sakes of memes. To put someones picture up on a specific search, for example. Yet other search results we believe to be hand crafted by Google.

Now, I think it is more likely that Google is manipulating data here. However, I never see it discussed why we don't think someone else could be manipulating it?

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by scratchnsniff on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @10:23PM (#17864931)
Search "American inventors" with the quotes and you'll get what you're looking for. Without the quotes you have to assess each word individually and with order independence. The "American" portion of the search phrase will result in a higher connected relevancy for "American inventors" who are also "African American" due to their shared keyword space. This is also probably why you're not seeing similar results when trying to repeat the experiment for other countries.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by pacerwpg on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:05PM (#17859882)
I don't see anything odd. I see a lot of American scientists and inventors.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by FilterSweep on Wednesday August 29, 2018 @11:25AM (#17868934)
If you were to take Google’s “organic results” to heart this would be largely explained by the greater number of people (from all political slants) seeking out AA inventors for the sake of their online disputes.

Furthermore, to be honest, this “organic” search has largely been used to debunk racist claims. And the search has been used for over a decade.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by cocacola1 on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:14PM (#17859985)
I'm seeing a bunch of scientists and inventors.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by brianbreslin on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:50PM (#17860418)
this got me curious and i found this post about this: http://www.unz.com/isteve/great-moments-in-google-american-i...
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by closetohome on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @02:34PM (#17861518)
You found an alt-right blog complaining about a glitch in an algorithm that accidentally promoted afraican americans?

Shocking.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by brianbreslin on Wednesday August 29, 2018 @10:23AM (#17868402)
oh I wasn't endorsing it. Just pointing out that someone else had already written about this key point.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by DuskStar on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @07:42PM (#17863931)
In all seriousness, are we not allowed to complain about glitches now, particularly if the glitch means 'increased diversity'?
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by lotu on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @11:49PM (#17865443)
It is called understanding context. This isn’t a thread about weird tech glitches it is a thread about Donald Trump accusing Google of liberal bias; something that apprentlly involves showing more black people than neccassary in search results.

If you lay out the game theory brining this up in this context you are implying that this is part of some vast liberal conspiracy. That is the problem.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by DuskStar on Wednesday August 29, 2018 @12:17AM (#17865578)
Well, that's a slightly different question.

If the article is on Trump claiming that Google politically biases search results, Google having a history of returning suboptimal results in a way that is "stereotypically liberal" would be some decent supporting evidence - someone having done something before increases the prior probability of them having done so again. If that's actually accurate, of course.

Now, it seems pretty clear to me that this was a bug (and one I see in other, non-political search results) and that lowers the credibility of the criticism. I'd still rather have both sides make their strongest arguments though, and that includes pointing out prior occurrences that might suggest a pattern.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by tango24 on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:03PM (#17859867)
What is your suspicion here?
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by rory on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:09PM (#17859929)
I think the poster's referring to the overrepresentation of black scientists in that result, implying political motivation. It's pretty clear that it's just an artifact of the collision with the common search term "african american scientists". The result for "united states scientists" more or less proves this to be the case.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by dragonwriter on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:29PM (#17860183)
> I think the poster's referring to the overrepresentation of black scientists in that result

I don't think there is any overrepresentation in the result set, though there does seem to be a small cluster at the top (the top 5 and 9 of the first 12, but then a sudden drought.)

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by bepotts on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @03:34PM (#17862125)
I think this is correct.

If you Google search "African American Scientists" and "African American inventors", you get almost the exact same photo list as "American Scientists" and "American inventors".

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by fortomorrow on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:40PM (#17860309)
Hmm I'm not so certain about that. US inventors returns 5 out of the top 10. They are

George Washinton Carver, Elijah McCoy, Madam CJ Walker, Lewis Howard Latimer, and Garrett Morgan

How many of those do you suppose are actually in the "Top 10" of US inventors

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by afshin on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:48PM (#17860396)
The first ten inventors I see when I search for "US inventors" are:

Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Samuel Morse, Eli Whitney, Nikola Tesla, George Washington Carver, Charles Goodyear, Lewis Howard Latimer, Henry Ford, George Eastman

... which does corroborate OP's "American inventors" hypothesis.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @01:00PM (#17860511)
First off I think you searched for American Inventors not US inventors which seems to collide with African American because engineers are smart but computers are stupid.

Secondly google search results are a best guess based on prior search history and other data about you about what you want to read right now given a term.

You wont anywhere find a universal fact about what google themselves thinks about anything without reading material written BY google and not generated results from its search engine.

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by autokad on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:15PM (#17860001)
by "overrepresentation of black scientists", in my case it means 100%.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by rory on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:20PM (#17860062)
Huh I see Einstein and Feynman in the top few results. Again, if you just switch the term to start with "united states" there are literally zero black people in the top results so seems unlikely it's a conspiracy.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by autokad on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:27PM (#17860154)
I doubt it is, but I also don't fault someone for thinking so. Einstein showed up after 3 scrolls.

For me, "there are literally zero black", was not true. predominately not black, but Washington was in the list. I don't mean to be pedantic, but I take 'literally' seriously

Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by rory on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @02:27PM (#17861430)
I meant zero before scrolling. Einstein and Feynman show up before scrolling at positions six and seven when I search "american scientists" and the other results are black american scientists of one field or another. No black people show up before scrolling when I search "united states scientists". I guess results vary by geography or history or something.
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by asdkhadsj on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @04:58PM (#17862820)
Same
Re:Trump Accuses Google of Burying Conservative News in Sear... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 28, 2018 @12:49PM (#17860410)
Google isn't an oracle of truth its a best guess at what you want to read given a search term.

Wherein they try to provide actual answers to questions more complicated than 2+2 or what is the weather like they have ended up with interesting results drawn from the nonsense that is the internet.

"Instant answers have attracted criticism for years. In 2014, Google results highlighted a Breitbart story saying Barack Obama was the king of America, and the next year, Google got flak for providing an excerpt from a creationist website saying dinosaurs were tools of indoctrination in response to the question, "What happened to dinosaurs?"

Conspiracy-mongering instant answers drew attention in March after the website Search Engine Land pointed out that Googling "Is Obama planning a coup?" displayed an answer from a website called SECRETS OF THE FED saying Obama was indeed planning a coup with the help of "the communist Chinese."

https://www.sfgate.com/technology/article/google-instant-ans...

Imputing bias from search results may be a mistake. Especially when in some cases it might even be a correct guess at what the searcher actually wanted to read.