News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by aphextron on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:35PM (#17806420)
>In school, I used to wonder how people survived this voyage if they were shackled below the whole trip

They didn't. You have to understand that African slaves were seen as cargo, not human beings. A good percentage would die every single time, and be thrown overboard. This was just accepted as part of the cost of doing business, the same way chicken breeders ship baby chickens in the mail today with the expectation that some will die in transit. The few that die off are more than made up for in profits by your ability to jam as many as possible into one shipment.

It's one of those facts that really makes the transatlantic slave trade stand out as perhaps the worst genocide in human history. It wasn't just killing. It was the industrial scale treatment of millions of human beings as cattle for over 300 years.

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by javiramos on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:43PM (#17806455)
Your comment reminded me of the famous J.M.W. Turner painting[1] which depicts the throwing overboard of hundreds of slaves so the captain of the ship could collect insurance payments.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave_Ship

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by vixen99 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:37AM (#17807522)
Meanwhile let's remember that there are an estimated 45 million slaves today according to the World Economic Forum 2017.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by lostlogin on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @03:10AM (#17807668)
It’s worth reading up on what’s gone on in Doha in the lead up to the World Cup. https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by throwaway555555 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @08:10AM (#17808844)
Yeah, but those slaves are not the same sort of slave this article is about.

This article is about a specific set of rules enforced by a government, to single out one type of person, for the rest of their life. Indentured servitude should not be equivocated with slavery, which, by contrast, is for life, and was inescapable by law.

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by ComputerGuru on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:37AM (#17807266)
> It was the industrial scale treatment of millions of human beings as cattle for over 300 years.

Actually, in pretty much every developing society cattle are considered prized ownership and are treated well and cared for. Farmers with thousands of sheep or cows still try to avoid the loss of even one.

Slaves were treated far worse than that. Perhaps like some used trash you were selling to a junkyard.

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by sirk390 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:56AM (#17807333)
>Slaves were treated far worse than that. Perhaps like some used trash you were selling to a junkyard.

How can you know that? Do you have book references or something?

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by lostlogin on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @03:08AM (#17807660)
The link gives me this impression. The death rate alone suggests this.
[dead]
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by lostlogin on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:26PM (#17812327)
The practice of killing slaves and claiming the insurance payout was eventually banned, but is exactly what you say didn’t happen.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zong_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave_Ship

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by speleding on Thursday August 23, 2018 @03:56AM (#17825406)
Those are incidents, and still show that the slave traders are acting in their own self-interest. It is not realistic to think that insurance companies would stand for this if it was standing practice.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by clarkmoody on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:43PM (#17806787)
> worst genocide in human history

Yes, racial slavery was a terrible evil. But it wasn't genocide, which has a specific definition (intention to wipe out a specific people). Slave traders wanted enough people alive to sell at a profit.

The scope of the death toll was large, but spread over a long period.

From Wikipedia:

> Approximately 1.2 – 2.4 million Africans died during their transport to the New World. More died soon upon their arrival.[1]

Over 300 years.

Compare to other genocides[2], which murdered similar numbers (or much more) but happened over just a few years.

Maybe you meant "worst" in the sense of most injustice? It certainly stands out, but it doesn't hold a candle to the death inflicted on a colossal scale by the governments of the 20th century during both war and peace. Estimates place Stalin's body count between 3-9 million.[3] WWII civilian deaths are estimated at 50 million and included the genocide of the Halocaust.[4]

Slavery is evil, but war is so much worse.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_tol...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_deaths_in_the_Soviet...

[4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by rags2riches on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:53PM (#17806836)
Ugh. It just struck me how the tragedy of the commons could apply to a human population.
[dead]
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by wallace_f on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:21AM (#17806974)
I don't read that in their comment? They said genocide has a specific definition, and the Atlantic slave trade does not match it. You are free to disagree on that point. I personally don't think it's a very good point to make here.

Instead you made some argument that they are trying to argue that it wasn't that bad, which is not based on a literal interpretation of their comment.

Can you believe white supremacists use the same kind of thinking? They also toss around the word genocide where it does not apply, assuming one against whites. If you were to say what the commenter said, they'd do the same: Instead of engaging the arguments based on merit, they'd accuse you of wrongthink.

Better to let people be honest and judge argument's on their merit rather than start accusing people of wrongthink so easily. Perhaps this is a pretty big problem in the politics right now.

If it becomes impossible to correct the definition of words without being branded as a wrongthinker, then what good is that going to do?

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @05:09AM (#17808136)
Words have meanings, terms have definitions. I'm with the pedants more and more. Otherwise people can simply say awful things and claim not to have meant it that way. That how lying becomes a bit ok.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by clarkmoody on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:21AM (#17806972)
Today I learned that calling something evil -- but not the worst -- is minimization.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by dang on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:05AM (#17807158)
It's not, and the parent reply was uncharitable, yet I can understand why someone would feel revulsion at your post. It feels a bit like a parlor game with numbers. Not technically wrong, let's say—but so incongruent with what it's talking about as to leave one feeling chilled and dehumanized. In that way it does come across as minimizing.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by ChainOfFools on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:42AM (#17807544)
but dang you can't put 'feeling chilled' and 'dehumanization' into rational numbers, and for a certain kind of person the inability to enumerate something or quantify its cost, is an automatic 'irrationality discount.' i.e. 'What can't be counted, can't count for much.'
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by dang on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @05:13AM (#17808156)
Maybe that's part of why collating slavery vs. war goes wrong. Mixing even a little quality with all that quantity would change the mentality, it seems to me.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by JoshCole on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:53AM (#17807107)
It's not. Plenty of people read what you wrote and understood it for how you meant it and also understood that the person who responded to you wildly distorted your point. You're not going to find a good conversation there. Its very sad that this type of distortion happens so often, but we live in a world where some people don't appreciate subtle truths.
Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by joewee on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:04AM (#17807154)
genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

Kidnapping a single ethnic group from their homeland and accepting that some percentage of them will die while transporting them in cages sure sounds like genocide.

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by BadassFractal on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @04:00AM (#17807876)
The majority of Africans sold in slave trade were acquired and sold by other Africans, not kidnapped by people from Europe or the Middle East: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

If we want to call it genocide, it would be more likely genocide of one African tribe towards another.

Note that this isn't to paint a picture of "look at these African savages killing each other", but only to highlight that historically members of the same ethnicity (at least the modern definition of "ethnicity") are rather eager to kill each other over resources (and moral differences to cover it up). Europeans, Asians, indigenous Americans etc were all quite successful in constant tribal warfare at various degrees of scale, there was nothing special about Africa here. In fact you could say that the Soviets were the most successful people in the history of the world at exterminating their own kind for one reason or another.

Re:Details of horrific first voyages in transatlantic slave ... by joewee on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @11:38AM (#17810541)
One Native American tribe killing another Native American tribe is still genocide. Africa is a continent, the slave trade was focused on nations / tribes within the continent. I think the appropriate application of ethnic group is applying it to the tribes / nations within the continent of Africa. Not the entire continent, which is made up of hundreds of ethnicities.