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Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by gerdesj on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:49PM (#17805286)
America first or people first?
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by hart_russell on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:54PM (#17805355)
If the company falls under US jurisdiction, it's incumbent upon policy makers to put Americans first
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by 8note on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:23PM (#17805574)
which Americans are you putting first though, the workers, the customers, or the owners?
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by ekianjo on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:58PM (#17805388)
Why not hire the best no matter where they come from? I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by sonnyblarney on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:34PM (#17805654)
" I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy."

Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they serve the community in some way.

Ergo, if corps serve only the benefit of shareholders and not really consumers or anyone else ... and the population derives no benefit ... then those people would vote to disable the very concept of incorporation, after all, why do they want these things around?

Clearly a case can be made for hiring some foreigners.

And more apt - if Cisco can benefit a lot from hiring people from India, it may be better for everyone if they are actually hired and working in India proper.

It's very reasonable for companies to consider locals for jobs 'all things being equal' ... even though they never are :)

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by craftyguy on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:25PM (#17805986)
> Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they serve the community in some way.

Citizens have absolutely no interest in enabling and empowering corporations unless they provide them with a beneficial service/product(s). I seriously doubt most citizens/consumers understand (or care about) the philanthropy implied by your statement. Do you really think people around the world would stop using google because they prefered to hire non-local folks? Some super small minority of folks (the 'locals') might care, but the vast majority of their customer base would be none the wiser.

> and not really consumers or anyone else ... and the population derives no benefit ... then those people would vote to disable the very concept of incorporation

No, they'd go bankrupt because their business model didn't include a viable way for them to survive.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by sonnyblarney on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:40PM (#17806091)
Hiring locals is not philanthropy and people generally care quite a lot about it, that's why ABC corp can't hire anyone in the world and just bring them to America.

Remember that hiring foreigners doesn't just mean 'work' - it means bringing them into the country and all that entails.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:01PM (#17805412)
Companies follow the law of the land, written by government for the benefit of its citizens (and not everyone can be a citizen; resource limits, cultural integration, those such issues, see the EU for examples of those challenges and why they limit economic migrants).

Companies should obey the law, or leave and be prohibited from operating in the jurisdiction (China does this successfully).

Edit: My apologies for reiterating this here (I mention it in a child comment), I don’t want to be verbose but I also don’t want to comment all over the place and risk a throttling flag: If you are a company and relocate, a country has many tools at it’s disposal to retaliate, and they should be used when necessary (see how the US almost drove ZTE to insolvency).

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by oneplane on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:05PM (#17805451)
The companies will be happy to relocate, there is nothing keeping them in a specific spot (unless it's a mining company or a company serving a very local market -- both are not the type of tech we are talking about)
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by baddox on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:48PM (#17805741)
> written by government for the benefit of its citizens

But why, or perhaps more importantly, why should this be the case? Why should citizenship (which is itself an arbitrary legal distinction made by the government) mean a person is more deserving of anything than non-citizen residents? It's not like naturalized citizens did anything to earn their citizenship.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:53PM (#17805795)
Because citizens are stakeholders in their government. Everyone else is not. Naturalized citizens earn their citizenship through a well defined process [1].

[1] https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36212

> The decision to apply is a significant one. Citizenship offers many benefits and equally important responsibilities. By applying, you are demonstrating your commitment to this country and our form of government.

> Support and defend the Constitution. Stay informed of the issues affecting your community. Participate in the democratic process. Respect and obey federal, state, and local laws. Respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others. Participate in your local community. Pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities. Serve on a jury when called upon. Defend the country if the need should arise.

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/citizenship-right...

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by closeparen on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:49PM (#17806815)
"Earning" citizenship has nothing to do with your own choices. It depends on your country of origin and the American public's openly racist opinions about the relative merit of people from your country. It's a given that any immigrant wants to become a US citizen, but quotas deny them that chance.

This is just like the NIMBYs. Work to deny people the opportunity to become "stakeholders," then use your success in doing so to claim their needs don't matter.

The birth lottery is a poor indicator of deservingness. This behavior, on the other hand, is bright-as-day proof of its absence.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by baddox on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:56PM (#17805820)
How so? Because citizens can vote? Because citizens have some legal protections that don't apply to non-citizens? Doesn't that mean that non-citizens actually have more of a stake in the competence and behavior of the government because they have much more to lose from certain government actions?
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:58PM (#17805830)
I'm unsure how we can argue this any further. You're arguing "what supports the existence of the concept of citizenship and a sovereign nation". That is the legal framework (across nations) we've agreed upon.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by Aloha on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:04PM (#17806241)
Culture, history, belief in a common set of values or traditions - Tradition.

People ought to have a vested interest in the place they work, and live. I know of no better way to do that than citizenship.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by baddox on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:52PM (#17806503)
I have no inherent problem with the concept of citizenship, I just point out that it is arbitrary, and more importantly, I don’t think it should be the threshold for the people the government should be expected to protect or support.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:00PM (#17806555)
It is arbitrary, because you have to draw the line somewhere.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by baddox on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:29AM (#17806994)
How about people who are not violent criminals and don’t have contagious diseases? That is far less arbitrary.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by closeparen on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:38PM (#17806763)
>and not everyone can be a citizen; resource limits, cultural integration, those such issues, see the EU for examples of those challenges and why they limit economic migrants

Concern about the "challenges" of too many brown people in your country is usually just called "racism."

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:51PM (#17806826)
It’s not the color of their skin, it’s their contribution as citizens (mostly; some immigrants don’t want to assimilate into their host country culture, which again is not a racial issue, it’s a cultural issue). Point me to a country that takes in unskilled immigrants on a visa for anything other than farm labor (in limited quantities).

If you have nothing to offer a country, why would that country accept you except under extenuating circumstances (ie political asylum)? You must be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by closeparen on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:00AM (#17806861)
How about the US our ancestors immigrated to?

EDIT: Shifting from a biological to a cultural explanation for why certain racial groups have inferior/unacceptable behaviors doesn't diminish the level of racism. Country of origin dominates any measure of individual assimilation w.r.t your chances in the immigration system, so it's not clear that shifting the rhetorical justification changes anything either.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:01AM (#17806875)
That country and time no longer exist, and it’s disingenuous to make such a comparison.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by closeparen on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:11AM (#17806929)
Shouldn't you be a little suspicious of a finding that it stopped being appropriate to share $thing after you got yours?

Of course that country still exists. We're all sitting here benefitting from it while we kick the ladder on everyone else.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:18AM (#17806961)
I’m not suspicious. The land wasn’t shared, it was taken by force and the people it was taken from were either massacred or rounded up onto reservations where they slowly die out from poverty today. Nothing today can change what was done; that doesn’t make open borders and unlimited immigration penance for our historical wrongs.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by closeparen on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:23AM (#17806979)
>Being selective about who a country allows in as a resident or citizen isn’t immoral.

Maybe not, if the selection process were primarily concerned with individual merit. But it isn't. We decide which races to allow as residents or citizens, then throw the individuals into a lottery, with good odds for white countries and bad odds for brown ones. Discriminating on ancestry or proxies for ancestry (like nationality) to keep underprivileged groups down and privileged groups comfortable is immoral. So is denying others the same opportunities benefitted from merely because they came later.

Would your own family tree's entrypoints to the US pass your test?

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by ekianjo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:03PM (#17805434)
So are you fine if Cisco relocates most of their operations in India for example? Because companies can move, and have done so many times in the past 30 years. That is basically what such restrictions lead to.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by amaccuish on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:12PM (#17805500)
>So are you fine if Cisco relocates most of their operations in India for example

That is almost always threatened and almost always never happens.

As toomuchtodo suggests, this lassez-faire culture with business needs to stop. Every year it's a different scandal, we need to stop tip-toeing around business. They rely on a nation's education system, transport, internet infrastructure etc, they didn't come from nothing. China and India in these respects are doing very well, and I'm sure their citizens are thankful.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by refurb on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:55PM (#17806203)
That is almost always threatened and almost always never happens.

What? There has been a huge amount of offshoring in the past few decades. Not sure you can say it never happens.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by amaccuish on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @10:36AM (#17809959)
Ye that's been parts like customer service as the famous example. I was talking about a firm's entire operations, including head office.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by toomuchtodo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:05PM (#17805455)
I am, and I am fine with tariffing their products if they do so, or going so far as to invalidate their patents or IP (as India does with some pharmaceuticals). China just plain ol shuts you out of their market entirely!

A company only exists because a nation state allows it. That formation can be revoked at any time.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by castlecrasher2 on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:06PM (#17805462)
>Why not hire the best no matter where they come from?

I think you're referring to a different program than the H1B system.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by mc32 on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:03PM (#17805431)
Sure but then let's make that happen in every major economy. Doing this unilaterally is foolish and will be taken advantage of.
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by mLuby on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:40PM (#17805689)
How would it be taken advantage of?
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by oneplane on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:04PM (#17805441)
@toomuchtodo: no, at scale, they don't. And in tech, a country has very little to offer unless it possesses something you can't get elsewhere, which the USA doesn't.

Why do you think there is so much 'business' going on between larger enterprises and government at many levels? It's all to keep them around, not because it's the best fit. Take Amazon, they want to build an office, so all states and counties and whatever else you have in local government bends over backwards to try and reel them in.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by h4b4n3r0 on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:34PM (#17806745)
>> Why not hire the best no matter where they come from?

Here's what H1-B actually works if you hire "the best": you hire people who are way overqualified for the job, and pay them peanuts while they are on H1-B. "But H1-B requires that they are paid no less than US workers" you might reasonably object. There's a loophole for that: just hire them at a way lower job ladder level than an American would consider adequate, and don't promote them as much. It's not like they have much of a choice anyway: they can either work here or GTFO to their country of origin within 2 weeks.

I liked Trump's proposal that only the highest paid positions get H1-B visas. That way economic incentives essentially turn H1-B into an auction for the truly great people, and make life easier for fresh US grads. I'm not sure what happened to that proposal. It was probably smothered in the crib by FANG lobbyists.

Full disclosure: I'm a former H1-B, now a naturalized US citizen.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by 0x8BADF00D on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:03PM (#17805430)
If you think H1B leads to that outcome, you are either unaware of the issues surrounding it or intentionally misframing the problem.

You have no idea what these people go through, my heart breaks every time I see one with a family and the thousand yard stare they have because they’re clearly being exploited.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by mjevans on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:00PM (#17805841)
Put /people/ first (and by proxy also the environment; because people need it); then require the companies to treat all employees equally.

Add a tax on any imports that do NOT put people first, but use the proceeds to fund efforts to improve the lives of all.

Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by remarkEon on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:58PM (#17805392)
These are American companies, are they not?
Re:Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers by oneplane on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:07PM (#17805465)
Partially. They are multinationals, and while there is a lot of money moving around in the USA, it's not bigger or worth more than the rest of the world combined. At the same time, they are often legally split up so the USA part is very small and (on paper) insignificant.