News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by keithmancuso on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:38AM (#17783106)
Is this the best evidence yet that Arm Macs are, in fact, coming in 2020?
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by dchest on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:42AM (#17783143)
Apple doesn't use Arm-design cores, they design CPUs that use Arm ISA in-house, so this tells us nothing about Macs.
[dead]
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by dchest on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:01AM (#17783323)
The linked article refers to Arm core designs roadmap. Qualcomm and others will use those cores in their SoC. Apple, on the other hand, no longer uses those cores, they design their own cores that just happen to use the same Arm instruction set. Their cores are already more performant than those provided by Arm, so they don't need those design to put A# CPU as the main processor into MacBooks, they would probably design their own. So, this article is not the best evidence that Apple will use Arm in Macs (even though, I believe this would eventually happen.)
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by gsnedders on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:22AM (#17783489)
Qualcomm also design their own implementations of ARM (e.g. the current Kyro), though they do definitely ship some things with ARM designed cores.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by uluyol on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:40AM (#17783593)
While Kryo used to be fully custom, lately it's been based off of the Cortex designs. I'm not just talking about the low end SoCs, but even their high end stuff. Anandtech usually has details on this.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by gsnedders on Friday August 17, 2018 @01:39PM (#17784485)
Right, it's now a derivative design (as was Scorpion, AFAIK), though how much that matters is questionable (Apple got good perf gains over the Cortex-A8 in the Apple A4 despite it being a derivative).
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by dchest on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:24AM (#17783509)
Samsung too (Exynos M1-M3). I think Qualcomm designs are heavily modified Arm designs, though.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by SmallDeadGuy on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:25PM (#17783941)
It's not "just happen to use the same Arm instruction set," it's "they keep up to date with advances in the Arm architecture, such as v8.x extensions, which are heavily influenced by what Arm plans in their roadmaps."

If instructions/extensions are being made that improve laptop-class performance in some ways, then that likely does increase the chance of Apple making laptop-class Arm cores for their Macs, even if by a miniscule amount.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by monocasa on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:58AM (#17783304)
Apple cores out perform ARM cores. They don't care what ARM dies in this space because they're years ahead of them in perf already.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by IB885588 on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:41AM (#17783132)
Wouldn't Apple design the whole thing internally without needing help from Arm? They have a world-class silicon design team in-house.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by nickik on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:10AM (#17783384)
They would still have to pay for an ARM license, at least outside of RISC-V.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by CalChris on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:46PM (#17784113)
Apple has an architecture license. I don't know what the terms of the license are but it allows Apple to develop architecture compliant chips. They were one of the original developers of the original ARM and held a large stock position in ARM Ltd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by gsnedders on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:25AM (#17783517)
Do we know what Apple is paying? Remember that ARM started as a joint project from Acorn, Apple, and VLSI. Apple certainly held a full architecture license from founding, despite not designing one until comparatively recently, which to me implies there's some specific license.

I certainly assume they weren't paying large amounts for a license when relatively poor in the 90s despite holding one.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by slivym on Friday August 17, 2018 @06:15PM (#17785823)
These chips are 5W TDP and around that area. The most powerful Intel CPUs in the Macbooks are 45W. So unless you're suggesting that ARM Is making CPUs that are literally 10x more power efficient, this actually seems to rule that out. This road map is great for maybe an entry level Mac. But it wouldn't be able to roll that out to the full line-up which I think makes it less likely.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by rsynnott on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:44AM (#17783158)
No. Apple hasn't use ARM core designs in years.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by piyh on Friday August 17, 2018 @02:39PM (#17784869)
Apple T2 chip, currently being used and produced.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by MBCook on Friday August 17, 2018 @03:04PM (#17785008)
But that’s not an ARM design, right? It’s an Apple design either based on ARM or just using their instruction set.

I don’t think Apple uses straight ARM chips for anything of consequence anymore (I imagine little low-power embedded ones still exist).

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by pertymcpert on Friday August 17, 2018 @07:42PM (#17786120)
I don’t believe that’s an Arm design.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by rasz on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:47AM (#17783189)
No, Apple ARM laptop (most likely Air replacement) will ship with Apple custom ARM chip.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by thought_alarm on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:45AM (#17783172)
Apple's software engineering team doesn't have the bandwidth to transition the Mac to a new architecture, and neither does their hardware team.

And nobody wants a stripped-down, locked-down version of MacOS-Lite.

So, no.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by endorphone on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:47AM (#17783196)
Apple's software and hardware teams are absolute monsters compared to when they made the transition from PowerPC to x86. The toolset and maturity for cross-platform compilation is dramatically more advanced and mature. They could absolutely do this, and it seems eminently likely that they will in the near future.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by matwood on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:51AM (#17783677)
I would also bet the already have full macOS running on ARM internally. I think we are seeing the proof of this in the new libraries being released to support the iOS like apps (News and Stocks) on the Mojave.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by mavhc on Friday August 17, 2018 @05:54PM (#17785753)
Why do you think they rewrote from scratch all the applications they acquired from 3rd parties like Final Cut, Logic?
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by burnte on Friday August 17, 2018 @07:39PM (#17786112)
You don't need to rewrite them from scratch. They've had those companies for years and it's a good bet that they've done work to make it more portable. It was already available back when Macs were using PPC, so the code is obviously somewhat portable.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by mavhc on Saturday August 18, 2018 @06:33AM (#17787862)
Perhaps they didn't need to, but they did anyway
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by pducks32 on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:37PM (#17784061)
When they transitioned to Intel they even said they had internal Macs running on Intel for years waiting for this day.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by gsnedders on Friday August 17, 2018 @02:47PM (#17784919)
AFAIK, they essentially "just" maintained the x86 port of NeXTSTEP throughout the entire migration from NeXTSTEP to Mac OS X.

I wouldn't be amazed if they supported big-endian PPC still for the sake of maintaining portability, though I feel that's less likely than little-endian ARM.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by stiGGG on Friday August 17, 2018 @02:19PM (#17784722)
Did somebody here get one of these back in the days? https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-development-trans...
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by thought_alarm on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:26PM (#17783950)
AppKit is now very old, and maintaining backward compatibility through annual release cycles is extremely complicated and challenging. And that complexity doubles when you add a new platform in the mix.

Porting AppKit to ARM is easy. It's another thing entirely to commit to supporting parallel versions of AppKit for the next 8+ years.

It would be a colossal waste of Apple's software engineering resources, which many people believe are already stretched too thin. And for what, a little better battery life? It's just not realistic.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by endorphone on Friday August 17, 2018 @01:47PM (#17784533)
And for what, a little better battery life? It's just not realistic.

Having entire vertical control, with the flexibility and profitability that entails. Apple is paying hundreds to thousands per processor to Intel, and worse (for Apple) they are beholden to Intel for their product map. This is the antithesis of what Apple is about.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by mixmastamyk on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:58AM (#17783719)
Perhaps, but these are the same folks (for political reasons) who can no longer build a workstation tower or laptop for "professionals." If it wasn't for the iPhone rocketship business they'd be dead.

Imagine if Dell didn't have a competitive workstation/pro laptop in the lineup for five years.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by nutjob2 on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:32PM (#17784005)
You've got it the wrong way around. Apple is neglecting their Mac line becuase it's paltry compared to their phone business. It's just as much, if not more, work with a fraction of the profits. They would be negligent to do otherwise.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by mixmastamyk on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:36PM (#17784050)
Wouldn't be very smart reasoning on their part, but let's assume true. Supports the up-thread assertion that they are not able to do it for political reasons however.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by nutjob2 on Friday August 17, 2018 @01:43PM (#17784505)
So given two jobs, you'll focus on the one that pays you the least per hour? Apple isn't just being smart, it has a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder returns.

I'm not sure what you mean by "political reasons" but it does still make billions from Macs, and the Macs contribute in indirect ways to the phones and the overall brand. Maybe that's what you mean.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by mixmastamyk on Friday August 17, 2018 @04:01PM (#17785292)
Does Apple have three employees? Of course not, so please stop with the false dichotomy.

Either support a product fully or end it, one of Jobs’ most important lessons.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by swebs on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:50AM (#17783222)
>And nobody wants a stripped-down, locked-down version of MacOS-Lite.

That's what everyone was saying before the iPad launch and look how that turned out. Personally, I would hate an iPadBook, but I can see it selling really well. Especially among students.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by vidarh on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:00PM (#17783734)
I think it would too.

I've had both a Chromebook and most recently and Android tablet with a magnetically attached keyboard, and it's great as a "I don't quite feel like bringing my proper laptop" device crossing over to a tablet, and it fits in my coat pockets.

It's a bit on the heavy side, but have pretty much supplanted my Android tablet. The Chromebook had a similar position, but then I still ended up bringing my (smaller) tablet with me.

For me at least it will never supplant a "proper" laptop because I want a full size keyboard and a much bigger screen, but it's a great complement for travels and meetings etc. or just to bring along in case of emergency.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by monocasa on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:59AM (#17783313)
Like a ChromeOS MacBook.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by tonyedgecombe on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:49AM (#17783663)
Apple has a track record of successfully transitioning to a new architecture, they have done it several times. Not only that but they already produce ARM based devices.

And nobody wants a stripped-down, locked-down version of MacOS-Lite

Yet in iOS that is exactly what Apple sells the most.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by djrogers on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:31AM (#17783550)
> And nobody wants a stripped-down, locked-down version of MacOS-Lite.

There's nothing inherent in an ARM transition that would lead to such a thing, and there's nothing in the current x86 architecture that's preventing it.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by matthewmacleod on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:03AM (#17783338)
Mmmm, with two previous examples of similar transitions, as well as the fact that lots of the tech that makes up MacOS already runs on aarch, I’m not sure there’s much to back up that view.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by myrandomcomment on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:44AM (#17783619)
Why? I moved from a MacPro to a MacBook because I travel to much and I did not want the extra weight. If there is something that I need to do that is CPU intensive I can just ssh to my works racks and racks of build servers and let them do the work. Laptops today for most people are nothing more then email, web, and presentation & documentation machines. Given the ability to punt the hard stuff to the cloud or remote access to your corporate systems if you are a dev, battery life, screen resolution and weight seems to be the largest driving factor in design. Also to be fair some of the benchmarks for the last Apple ARM based CPU have it beating the Intels in a few task. It is important to realize not everyone has your particular set of needs. Apple is after all a mass market company and will focus on the largest set of users.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by wtetzner on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:47AM (#17783191)
> And nobody wants a stripped-down, locked-down version of MacOS-Lite.

Plenty of people use iPads instead of laptops, no?

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by thought_alarm on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:52AM (#17783242)
Apple is focused on making iOS better, rather than making MacOS worse.
Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by nutjob2 on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:24PM (#17783940)
Apple has been running MacOS internally on ARM hardware for a long, long time now.

I guess you missed the fact that Apple has endless billions to spend and can buy or hire to achieve anything they want.

Re:Arm Announces Client CPU Roadmap For Laptops by CyberDildonics on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:11AM (#17783397)
What are you basing that on?