> "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women."

Enough with the boys will be boys angle. That behavior doesn't have to be the default male behavior. It shouldn't be the default male behavior.

Enough is enough, that's not ok anymore. And we men need start calling each other out on it.

Why shouldn't it be the default male group behavior (for some ages and environments) to discuss women?

Is it that trying to sleep with women is immoral or that considering their looks is immoral or that discussing it is immoral?

I guess the core way I disagree with modern culture is that there's this idea that women are either viewed as objects or as humans. It's kind of obvious that they're both, if you say that women are absolutely not sexual objects or to be seen as such then OK but you've blinded yourself to 50% of how the world unavoidably works. You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans, and everyone is capable of doing so. I don't think objectification is the offense, I think dehumanisation is and they're not the same thing.

> You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans

But did the company demonstrate this at all? I only read about objectification. If they truly saw women as humans as well they wouldn't have laughed off her suggestion that some of the female characters in the game could be anything other than a sex object.

None of the ways in which women were discussed was respectful. That's the difference.

You're talking about hypothetical respectful objectification, which just isn't a thing.

It's only not a thing because you've defined it as such. You can make the rule that "commenting on a girl's looks or whether you could get with them is disrespectful" and then the loophole is closed, but my argument is that that's not a truthful or helpful way to organize the world.

>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women.

I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male environment."

Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.

There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".

I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it.

Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect.

The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.

There's an enormous gap between calling someone a sex worker and calling them a coal miner. There's an even-more-enormous gap between calling most of your team "bros" and calling the one woman on your team a sex worker. That is not in-group bonding, that's targeted, gender-based harassment.

Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. It's far more often used playfully, and often by women themselves. Only a very offended culture would cause you to take it seriously.

And honestly, Coal Mining is a job with like social status zero and sex work status -1. My dad actually was a coal miner and it wasn't great. Even if you mindlessly take it literally it's not that far off.

> Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever.

Yes, it is. Most often, IME, with a derogatory label indicating lack of intelligence alongside it, but even by itself it is.

> Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever.

I live in 'The West' and I refute this claim, regardless of how it was used in this specific context.

May I submit as evidence against that assertion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPFkjF-Bdo

You don't get that reaction if its not a pejorative.

Seems like a shit test. I've been in companies where the women were better at it than the men and perfectly able to stand their ground.

> Those who consider themselves “a bullshit free zone,” eg: masculine men will “ball bust” (read: shit test your ass a new one) quite relentlessly to determine “just how much of a man you are.” If you are an effeminate or timid man, you will feel bullied rather than challenged and this tells the group everything they need to know about you.

https://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclop...

And the correct response if someone doesn't appreciate your attempted humor is to stop using it, instead of continuing it after they've asked you to stop use that term. You are not "bring someone in" by disregarding their wishes on how to be labelled. Groups can use crude language and be respectful to each other, but everyone being in on it is an important part of it being respectful. (And that goes both ways: people will make bad jokes and IMHO one shouldn't jump on someone for that immediately, although I can see how it can be difficult if things appear again and again, but I think it's fair to expect them to respect it if they get told off for it)

> I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor,

Employment lawyers fucking love it when employees say "It was only banter", because that's almost a guarantee of a payout.

The trouble with this sort of thing is that it's all "friendly" up until, and sometimes past, the rape attempts.

> Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege.

Isn't that exactly what the sexist bro culture she outlined is? Some coworkers were unable or unwilling to drop the parts of their personality that doesn't lend well to collaboration.

I like dirty, offensive jokes and I like to tease people - not to upset them it's just my sense of humor. My friends get that and are okay with it.

BUT I realize in an office environment these things don't help me be more effective, and they certainly don't help my colleagues be more effective, so I leave that part of myself at home. Same way I don't go on endlessly about my hobbies and passions outside of work during work hours. It's just not germane to getting shit done.

My older brother settled down in the suburbs and picks up work as a substitute teacher in a school with female-dominated staff. He’s a handsome guy. Every time I see him, he tells me the latest story of a teacher or fellow staffmember making a crude sexual joke or coming on to him. All of these being mostly middle-aged women. We have a chuckle.

It’s interesting how men generally don’t “whistleblow” on those sorts of scenarios. Yet only men ever get nailed with “ugh, pigs!” as if women never have open sexual thoughts.

It's almost like...there's some sort of gendered power imbalance in society? That might make men comfortable disregarding this? But that might not afford women the same privilege?

There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed. The real wage gap when you control for time worked and job choice is tiny.

Ask yourself this - would you consider your child more lucky to be an ugly, short boy or a pretty girl? Or a boy and you have 20k a year to bring him up vs a girl and you have 50? Walking around furious as a good looking middle class woman that you're incredibly disadvantaged is basically a religious status. But instead of being offended by very specific insults or assumptions you're offended by everything.

> "A senior staff member proceeded to repeatedly call me sexist for not being willing to room with a man I’d never met before. At first, I thought he was kidding, but he continued to make arguments to his point. I explained why I would be more comfortable sharing a room with another woman, and told him I wasn’t enjoying the conversation and would leave if I was continued to be called sexist. The conversation continued, with him eventually saying that my unwillingness to room with a man was the same as not hiring a woman due to her gender."

You're not arguing in good faith right now. The above scenario isn't a joke - it's harassment. No matter who it was done to; any gender in any context, it would be harassment.

You're phrasing this like it was a few offhand comments; as a man, if any of the stuff in this article had happened to me, regardless of whether it had been a male or female doing it, I would have been appalled. I would be having the exact same reaction.

To talk about experiences like this as if they just boil down to political correctness requires a kind of willful ignorance.

I think you have to look at the quote in the context of the situation, she'd already antagonized the whole company in her first 6 months by throwing probably the most explosive political grenade that you can. Her manager clearly wasn't trying to make her room with him, he's trying to hit her with what he sees as "her own philosophy" given that he thinks she's a SJW. I don't really agree with his point but you can see the argument, a lot of modern feminism starts from the assumption that there are zero differences between men and women, you can draw a line from that to "you should room with anyone we're all identical any discrimination/segregation is bad". I don't agree with it but it's just a stupid political argument he's having with her, it's not in any form sexual harassment. If he'd booked himself into a room with her, that would be sexual harassment.

If you have a low level ongoing argument with your manager it's going to get rough at some point. My whole point was that the article is very thin on specific bad experiences and mostly about her own reaction to third party conversations within earshot.

> she'd already antagonized the whole company in her first 6 months by throwing probably the most explosive political grenade that you can.

Questioning the lack of diversity of body types for female avatars compared to make avatars is “throwing probably the most explosive political grenade that you can.”?

I don't see it. Or, I sure see how the blatantly sexist response [0] could be viewed as politically explosive, but I don't think she anticipated or reasonably should have that that would be the response.

[0] which either outright claimed or implicitly relied on each of these: (1) that avatars of a particular gender matter only to players of that gender, (2) that female players are concerned only with the attractiveness of their avatar, while men have more varied interests, (3) that only a single female body type is attractive.

> a lot of modern feminism starts from the assumption that there are zero differences between men and women

No, it doesn't, though a lot of sexist rants about feminism start with the claim that it does.

> I don't agree with it but it's just a stupid political argument he's having with her, it's not in any form sexual harassment.

Alone, it's maybe not extreme enough to constitute sexual harassment as a single event, though it's quite easily the kind of thing that with a bunch of other stuff reported in the story could easily qualify as part of a pattern constituting sexual harassment by creation of a hostile workplace.

> a lot of modern feminism starts from the assumption that there are zero differences between men and women

No, very little of modern feminism starts from this perspective. And even if it did, this is a strawman.

Regardless of the manager's goal, it is vastly inappropriate. It would have been inappropriate even if the genders in the story were reversed. Arguing that the manager was so immature that they engaged in petty political bickering to make a point at the expense of a team member's emotional well being doesn't make me feel like they were any more justified.

That's not something that should happen in a professional environment.

> My whole point was that the article is very thin on specific bad experiences

From the article: "While on a team outing, the same senior staff member messaged a new employee’s girlfriend on Facebook asking if she was “DTF” - shorthand for “down to f-ck”. He thought it was a funny joke. The new staffer didn’t feel comfortable challenging him, even though his girlfriend was very uncomfortable and called to ask why she was being harassed by his boss."

But I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why it's appropriate for a manager to abuse a power structure to hit on an employee's girlfriend that he's never met.

Seriously, the entire article is example after example after example. Employees asking personal questions about her sex life. Abusing fans - a female just got fired for being short with fans on Twitter, but sure, forcing a cosplayer to tears is just boys being boys. Trying to run blackface in a cosplay parade. Physical advances and professional retaliation against female employees.

This isn't a conversation at this point. You're mischaracterizing her story to throw doubt on her claims. You're not arguing in good faith, you're just gaslighting.

> There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed.

I dunno, I think race is discussed at least as much, and economic class even more.

I've been at the table when middle aged women objectified men, discussing package size, etc in a work environment.

It wasn't a big deal. I wasn't offended.

I don't think that's prescriptive for anyone else. I'm older, and I tend to just believe I don't/can't understand what makes one thing right and another wrong. I have enough of my own problems to police the actions of others.

It does seem strange everyone else seems so sure of how everyone else should be. That sort of confidence I only have towards technical topics.

And if in that women-dominated environment they targeted you with degrading comments or sexual harassment that would be just as bad, what's that comparison supposed to tell us? (and doing the same to men in a male-oriented environment isn't ok either if they aren't ok with it)

But she doesn't say that she had a lot of degrading comments, that's what my original post said. Her manager had an off joke about bros and a ho and someone once asked her about her sex life. Yeah that's not great but it's world-ending. Most of her article isn't about that, it's complaints about other people, speaking to eachother.

I've worked in female-dominated environments (I used to be a copy-typist). They were fine. No passive-aggressive anti-male comments, no questions about my sex life, no harassment. The conversation topics were about more stereotypically female topics than in other places I've worked, but I was made to feel very welcome.

I'm sure there are toxic women-only work environments (humans are great at making anything toxic) but it is absolutely possible to have a gender imbalance in a workplace without it being obnoxious.

Regardless of your views, please start posting civilly and substantively (that you avoid women is not something that we benefit intellectually from learning) or we'll ban the account. This site is not here as an ideological arena.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html