I mean it is impressive. But Toyota was not really a startup with no manufacturing experience in 2000.

Edit: Just reading the post twice. Tesla took 7 years to go from ~0 to 250K annually. Toyota took 18 years. Not really an apple to apple comparison

Toyota took 7 years as well. They did not start selling the Prius worldwide until 2000, and they hit 280k worldwide sales within 7 years.

But if you want to compare yearly figures...the non-liftback models went from 0 sales to 530,000 in sales in just 2 years. Now that is impressive. And it's also the counterpoint to Musk's Tesla: both Tesla and Toyota knew that demand existed for their cars. But Toyota knew how to execute properly, and did so, and was able to satisfy that demand. Tesla so far has royally fucked up, continues to fuck up, and it's up in the air whether they'll be able to right the ship before they run out of money.

I'm sorry, but this strikes me as extremely disingenuous.

They didn't invent the market, the Prius was just a better Honda Insight (primarily by virtue of having 3 more seats). Again, they deserve massive credit for their accomplishments.

But, again, they lose the "sales increase" by a wide margin unless you tweak that by insisting on limiting it to "a single model".

Certainly we don't know if Tesla will survive but the challenges facing a new carmarker of any sort are simply massive, rather than just producing a slightly-differently-propelled model in addition to the millions of conventional cars you already produce.

And where you really fall over is by trying to argue about "the non-liftback models" which I can only presume means the discontinued[1] Prius V which is a slightly-differently-bodied version of an existing car.

[1] https://www.toyota.com/priusv/

Toyota had 80 years of car manufacturing and selling experience before the Prius. Of course, they will be able to execute properly on a product (which is an incremental innovation).

It definitely is impressive, and they deserve great credit for their advancements-- I never liked the Prius but it was beyond obvious that every car in the future HAD to have a way of capturing deceleration energy rather than just bleeding it off as crude waste heat -- how silly and archaic that seems now.

But I'm not quite clear on your comment-- At first I thought it was to be read that the Toyota accomplishment was more impressive than Tesla's. But then I realized maybe you meant it to be less impressive, because the scale is far less. So I assumed you meant maybe Tesla's accomplishment was the more impressive one. But then you said Toyota's is EVEN MORE impressive when you consider that it's just a single model (which is a good point).

I was pretty impressed that my entirely gasoline-powered BMW 3-series apparently will use the braking energy to recharge the battery and disconnect the alternator, saving some small amount of MPG. So the technology is trickling into gasoline-powered cars as well, to save small amounts of fuel.

I've driven a stick-shift for a while in the past and always wondered if there was a way to capture the engine power when you downshift for engine braking coming up to a red light. Not sure how it would work though.

> I've driven a stick-shift for a while in the past and always wondered if there was a way to capture the engine power when you downshift for engine braking coming up to a red light. Not sure how it would work though.

Flywheels could work, but they are heavy, and have a potentially unsafe failure mode (dense material disintegrating at high RPM).

You could integrate an alternator with the gearbox in some way, and only connect it if your foot is off the pedal, or if you're about to run out of electricity.

my 2012 Z4 had limited recapture as well, it was a manual transmission with start/stop. It was there to mostly keep the battery up so you could start/stop. There was zero indication of it doing anything which I really found as a missed opportunity. You can really alter people's driving behavior if they see they are being "rewarded".

On my 2016 3 series there's an MPG bar below the speedo, and if you're in Comfort mode and coasting it will light up the battery in blue. If you're in Eco mode and braking it will flip the bar to say "charge". So I guess on newer models they took your advice and made it a bit more visible, and it definitely does impact my driving behavior because I want to see it light up blue :)

> [1] Even more impressive is that these are sales of a single model...

If we relax that "restriction"... Toyota says they sold 1.52 million electrified vehicles in 2017. That includes the Prius (both hybrid and PHEV variants), all their other hybrids (they have at least one hybrid option in most market segments they cover now), and the Mirai (fuel cell vehicle), across both the Toyota and Lexus brands.

It sounds a little less impressive when you realize that's only about 15% of the vehicles they sold globally, though (10.386 million cars globally, although I'm not 100% sure if that number includes Lexus).

I mean, unironically, yes. Prius is one of the most remarkable cars ever, even if actual car enthusiasts weren't very enthused.

As a car enthusiast, while I absolutely despise the driving dynamics of a Prius I deeply appreciate that it and other hybrids have had such a positive impact on cars. Hybrids are now becoming the standard for next gen drivers cars and are honestly pretty amazing tech.

Now if only people would stop driving their Prius' 10-under in the fast lane.

Have you driven a fourth-gen Prius (2016+)? Reviewers seem to agree it has a much nicer feel than previous iterations.

(I own a 2018 and am very happy with it, but I've never driven an older one, so I can't personally address any complaints about driving dynamics.)

My favorite thing about the Prius (other than the economy) is the simply MASSIVE space inside -- particularly rear seat legroom and the flat floor, but the trunk is huge as well.

My least favorite thing is the near-deafening road noise, particularly in the back seat. It's got a tin can door closure sound that reminds me of a Renault 5 or something. It's a HUGE step down from most economy cars in those regards.

This was through the 2nd and 3rd gen, at least. I've not been in a 4th gen.

It's hard to overstate just how weird the driving dynamics of a Prius are. I have a used one from like 8 years ago and going from it to driving a regular car is always a big adjustment because a Prius just doesn't handle like any other car. Solid commuter vehicle either way, though, and I can't complain about the gas mileage!

This is not a direct comparison even though everyone should appreciate Toyota’s accomplishment. Tesla started from nothing.

That's impressive, but fundamentally hybrids are a dead-end. They're more (not less) complex than pure internal-combustion cars, and they still need fossil fuel. Ten years from now there won't be any hybrids for sale; all cars will either be purely electric or special-purpose IC. Not that Toyota doesn't already realize this, but it puts Tesla's vision ahead for now in my opinion.

> It becomes even more impressive when you realize that before the Prius, there was no market for green cars, hybrid, electric, or otherwise.

The first incarnation of the Honda Insight was before the Prius, and somewhat successful before the Prius came on the scene and took over.

Honda Insight - 1999 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight Toyota Prius - 1997 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

From wikipedia: >Total global cumulative sales for the first generation Insight were 17,020 units

Thats for '00-'06 sales. idk what the first year sales were but the Pirus was on the scene very soon after the Insight.

The other obvious thing, the Insight looked like a car for weirdos. Something that tesla and later model prius / leaf's have tried to avoid.

I think we may be misremembering this. The Prius dates back to 1996, when it was based on the Echo. The Insight was '99.

Edit: Okay, maybe 1996 in Japan? According to this Wikipedia link, the Insight DOES predate the Prius but only in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_th...

Good link, to answer my own question, the first year insight sales were (drum roll): 17.

Honda Insight was never offered for sale, lease only. I'm not including leases because Tesla does not lease their cars and lease stats are more than a simple Google search away. But if we were to include leases, Prius' stats would look even better.

> Honda Insight was never offered for sale, lease only.

No, 17,000 or so were sold, and it was the first mass produced hybrid sold in the US.

Your arguments continue to devolve into uninformed or utter bad faith.

The insight WAS offered for sale, and Tesla DOES lease their cars[1]

[1]https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-leasing

I literally lease my Tesla