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Re:The missing profits of nations by tcfunk on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:38PM (#17619757)
Maybe this is a silly question, but why don't we just lower the corporate tax rate significantly (maybe 10 or 15%), and make the use of tax havens illegal?

I'll bet 10% of $17bil is still quite a bit more than whatever Google paid in US taxes that same year. Is it because "making the use of tax havens illegal" is hard/impossible?

Re:The missing profits of nations by jaredklewis on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:48PM (#17619861)
> Is it because "making the use of tax havens illegal" is hard/impossible?

It is at the very least hard. How would the law work?

Will it be illegal for a company to sell/transfer their intellectual property to a company in the Caribbean? Will it be illegal for that company to license intellectual property to a company in the US?

Everyone feels they can recognize tax evasion when they see it, but to come up with a set of quantitative tests that can be applied fairly is difficult. Being able to apply the law consistently is essential, as the government will picking market winners and losers if they let some companies get away with tax evasion but not others.

One of my biggest criticisms of income tax is that it is such a nightmare to implement fairly as income is very fungible.

Re:The missing profits of nations by tomp on Thursday July 26, 2018 @04:46PM (#17620925)
> Will it be illegal for a company to sell/transfer their intellectual property to a company in the Caribbean?

Why not? I'm sure the tax havens would be very quick to adopt sensible tax rates to stop the ban.

Re:The missing profits of nations by jaredklewis on Thursday July 26, 2018 @05:27PM (#17621347)
The first problem with this is the same race to the bottom you have with corporate tax rates in general. If only one country, the US for example, creates such a law, that would give corporations a massive incentive to create their intellectual property outside of the US. I imagine that pretty much all global companies would gradually move to produce all of their intellectual property outside the US so as to avoid such restrictions. This would in turn be a huge windfall to other countries and a major detriment to the US economy.

So you need all countries to coordinate on this front. I also don't see how the ban would encourage the Caribbean to adopt "sensible" tax rates. In the Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, or the Virgin Islands, the corporate tax is already zero. Not sure how much leverage such a ban would actually have over these countries.

The second problem is in the actual legislation. How is the law going to be written? Is it going to be a fixed list of countries that congress must update? Any country with a 0% tax rate? A new FTC style body that adjudicates which countries are "tax havens?" Because all of these can be circumvented with just a little elbow grease.

The final problem is enforcement. Can intellectual property be sold to other countries in the US? Can those companies be sold to foreign companies? If a US company is a acquired by a foreign company, could that company then not license software to US companies? Are all transactions between US and foreign companies going to be individually monitored? Because that is a lot of work, and if you don't do that, it's very difficult to enforce the law.

Basically, if someone was to sit down with the specific goal of designing a tax that could be easily evaded, they would come up with the income tax. Personally, I feel it's better if we adopt taxes that are more easily enforced and more progressive than the income tax. But for some reason, the corporate income tax remains relatively popular with politicians and voters around the developed world.

Re:The missing profits of nations by tomp on Thursday July 26, 2018 @05:41PM (#17621493)
US has far more leverage than any third-world country. E.g. they could simply prohibit countries incorporated/owning/owned by countries in tax havens from selling in the US. Seems to work well for China.
Re:The missing profits of nations by jaredklewis on Thursday July 26, 2018 @06:03PM (#17621702)
> E.g. they could simply prohibit countries incorporated/owning/owned by countries in tax havens from selling in the US.

Yea, I don't think there would be anything "simple" about this, for all of the reasons listed in my reply above.

> Seems to work well for China.

We have very different definitions of "work well." I assume you are referring to the recent tariffs, in which case we gave China an ultimatum, and they said go for it, and are imposing retaliatory tariffs.

If China had actually changed any of their trade policies to be more fair, I would have considered that to have "worked well."

What we got instead was a trade war, which was to be expected. Basically ultimatums are always an ineffective negotiating tactic as they force politicians in the receiving country to reject the offer, no matter how reasonable.

Re:The missing profits of nations by tomp on Thursday July 26, 2018 @06:27PM (#17621889)
> I assume you are referring to the recent tariffs, in which case we gave China an ultimatum

No, I'm referring to the fact that foreign (Western) companies cannot sell in China unless part of the products are made there, and can't own Chinese companies without Chinese co-ownership. It all resulted in a massive transfer of IP to China, simply because for most companies, the tradeoff still made sense (short-term at least) (Google is a notable exception).

Re:The missing profits of nations by jaredklewis on Thursday July 26, 2018 @08:32PM (#17622563)
Interesting. Comment makes more sense now.

The amount of law and international agreements that would be overturned by such a change is truly staggering, so I’d still say this is the antithesis of simple.

Further, I’m not sure China’s model, and protectionism in general, is a better strategy. No way to know, but I expect China’s economy would be stronger if it didn’t have these protections.

Like I said, there are a hundred things we can tax; why do we only want to tax the one that’s easy to evade?

Re:The missing profits of nations by tomp on Friday July 27, 2018 @02:10AM (#17623831)
I’d apply the same logic to everything. I’d also forbid money transfers to/from tax havens and ownership of property/companies by entities in tax havens or other countries that don’t reveal beneficial owners... There’s a lot of abuse happening, and it mostly involves the same few countries. The rest of us (i.e. employees and small business owners) end up paying so much more.

(By “forbid” I of course mean “tax so heavily it just doesn’t make any economic sense”.)

Re:The missing profits of nations by dbatten on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:48PM (#17619851)
Yes, making the use of tax havens illegal is very hard. It's basically a giant game of whack-a-mole, where the corporations have more people with stronger incentives working to get around the tax laws than the government has trying to write new ones.

Here's a fun explanation of the kinds of hoops corporations will jump through to dodge taxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Re:The missing profits of nations by gaius on Thursday July 26, 2018 @04:39PM (#17620838)
Here's a fun explanation of the kinds of hoops corporations will jump through

You're missing one piece of the puzzle: the Irish government is fully complicit in all this, with a "beggar thy neighbour" strategy to cream off taxes from their supposed partners and allies.

Re:The missing profits of nations by grasshopperpurp on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:56PM (#17620410)
>where the corporations have more people with stronger incentives working to get around the tax laws than the government has trying to write new ones.

If the penalties were harsh enough, wouldn't it change this dynamic?

Re:The missing profits of nations by freeone3000 on Thursday July 26, 2018 @04:22PM (#17620649)
The problem isn't that large companies are doing illegal things with taxes and aren't getting caught for tax evasion, it's that they structure arrangements in such a way that are legal but problematic, and as soon as a problematic method of doing business outlawed, a new one is put into place.
Re:The missing profits of nations by woodpanel on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:41PM (#17620313)
Playing devil's advocat here: Tax havens exist because

1) Nation states are their own sovereigns. Judging from that humans usually support things like the united nations and the law of nations, that will always include their sovereignity over their tax-design.

2) international flow of money is usually desired and thus encouraged. If you can afford to limit the flow to your country, fine. But less fortunate might be hard to convince to decline the benefits of it.

3) The more money you can spend on tax-lawyers, the more likely you are to be able to design your tax burden more efficiently around your needs (needs meaning your business objective + less taxes)

Also IMHO it's fair to say that the more complex a country's tax code, the higher the income-inequality in terms of access to tax-rate-optimum.

Re:The missing profits of nations by phkahler on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:49PM (#17619864)
>> Maybe this is a silly question, but why don't we just lower the corporate tax rate significantly (maybe 10 or 15%), and make the use of tax havens illegal?

We should do only one of those things.

Every person should incorporate themselves and do what the big guys do.

Re:The missing profits of nations by kennxfl on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:58PM (#17619959)
Individuals cannot register their "intellectual property" to another jurisdiction other than the one they operate in right?
Re:The missing profits of nations by solotronics on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:39PM (#17620302)
You can create an LLC pretty easily and transfer any of your IP to it.
Re:The missing profits of nations by mirimir on Thursday July 26, 2018 @05:05PM (#17621122)
Maybe so. But I suspect that individuals who attempted profit shifting would quickly get nailed for tax evasion.
Re:The missing profits of nations by zipwitch on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:55PM (#17620404)
That would eliminate a competitive advantage that large companies receive against their tiny bretheren.
Re:The missing profits of nations by ThrustVectoring on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:43PM (#17619808)
In the ideal world, corporate tax rates and taxes on investment income are zero. Google et al should be paying taxes on its earnings when it spends it on compensating employees, buying equipment for their offices, renting office space, etc.
Re:The missing profits of nations by mattmanser on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:48PM (#17619854)
Without any explanation of why this is ideal, this just comes across as a way of rewarding the rich 'land holders' and forcing the tax burden on the poor.

What the logic behind this 'ideal'?

Re:The missing profits of nations by leetcrew on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:27PM (#17620216)
i don't intend to argue GP's point for them, but it is important to be aware of the difference between paying a tax and actually bearing the burden of that tax. if (hypothetically) you increase some tax by 5% and all the companies raise their prices by 5%, you might end up with a situation where the companies "pay" the tax, but it entirely comes from the pockets of consumers. this is called tax incidence, and you can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence

the corporate tax is actually very controversial among economists. it seems like a straightforward case of "making the big corps pay", but there is very little consensus as to who ultimately foots the bill for this type of tax.

Re:The missing profits of nations by ThrustVectoring on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:36PM (#17620280)
Agreed. This is one of the reasons why a land-value tax is so good, in my opinion. Pretty much all of the burden of the tax is placed on landlords - if they could raise rents, they'd have already done so, so the tax pretty much entirely comes from the unearned value generated by holding the right to use a piece of land.
Re:The missing profits of nations by leetcrew on Friday July 27, 2018 @08:13AM (#17625365)
LVT is very appealing from the theoretical perspective. i would very much like to see it play out at scale somewhere. unfortunately, while it is fairly easy to add new taxes, you rarely see a new tax substituted for an old one.
Re:The missing profits of nations by ThrustVectoring on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:20PM (#17620152)
Investment is, broadly speaking, how individuals use current production to fund future consumption. Investment taxes are a tax on future consumption over and above taxes on current consumption, creating a distortionary effect.
Re:The missing profits of nations by lovich on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:06PM (#17620041)
Why should corporate taxes be zero but employee compensation should be taxed?
Re:The missing profits of nations by ThrustVectoring on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:24PM (#17620185)
We want corporations to use current funds to generate future positive cash flows. Stuffing a corporation full of money to get their preferential tax treatment is pretty much pointless when it gets taxed anyways when it gets used.
Re:The missing profits of nations by opportune on Thursday July 26, 2018 @06:20PM (#17621825)
Tax havens are tax havens for a reason. The only way to stop the Cayman Islands from being a tax haven would be picking a fight with the UK

This a solution which is easy to explain, but hard to implement.