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Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by saudioger on Friday July 06, 2018 @01:35PM (#17473396)
We're also 9 years away from the end of the last recession.

The longest we've gone without a recession in the past 100 years is 10 years.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by shams93 on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:46PM (#17474097)
Goes to show that Obama did much better than he was often given credit for. While Obamacare fell fall short of the medicare for all that is needed by business - imagine not having to worry about covering healthcare for employees for your startup - his overall job of captaining the ship through incredibly hard times was very successful.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by rufusroflpunch on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:51PM (#17474573)
This isn't about the President, at least not directly. Obama doesn't deserve credit any more than Bush Jr. deserved credit for navigating us through the .com bust. Since days of Alan Greenspan, the Fed has been inflating us out of recessions, into longer and more unsustainable booms, which are naturally followed by even worse busts. Our economy is like an over-correcting tightrope walker in slow motion. It's teetering back and forth further every time and you know at some point this whole thing is coming down, it's just a matter of when.

To use a different metaphor, the Fed and the Presidents are playing a game of musical chairs with their successors and no one wants to be the one standing when the music stops.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by neffy on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:13PM (#17474741)
That's not actually the case. If you look at the money supply for the US it has a pretty constant growth rate over the last 8 decades - while the Federal Reserve claims to be messing around with the interest rate to control the economy, the actual evidence that this is the case is quite lacking. (Illusion of Control problem)

So yes, it's not about the President, but the nature of control over the financial system is not through the interest rate channel either.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by codexon on Friday July 06, 2018 @09:29PM (#17476333)
"If you look at the money supply for the US it has a pretty constant growth rate over the last 8 decades"

I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion given it is common knowledge and fairly obvious that the Fed has been inflating the economy at absurd amounts to get us out of the 2008 crash.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BASE

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by jacksproit on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:05PM (#17474688)
Are the busts worse by % or just by $ amount?
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by canada_dry on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:34PM (#17474439)
This.

Sadly, it's highly likely that the current administration will - of course take credit - but more importantly - reap all the rewards (i.e. votes) in the next federal election.

I still am amazed at how Obama pulled the US from the brink of utter financial collapse shortly after taking office. Hopefully the next incoming administration will be as lucky.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by jazzyk on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:00PM (#17474640)
He did not pull us out of anything - just delayed the inevitable and prolonged the mis-mangement of the monetary policy by the Fed (with cooperation coming from other central banks).

The public debt almost doubled from 11T to 20T during his presidency). He also created moral hazard by not only NOT prosecuting people who he himself called "fat cats of Wall Street", but actually continuing to bail them out (started by W. Bush)

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ww520 on Friday July 06, 2018 @05:17PM (#17475198)
The financial rescue and QE happened in 2008 while Bush Jr. was in office.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by pedasmith on Friday July 06, 2018 @05:42PM (#17475364)
You might remember that Bush agreed to making a brand-new "Office of the President-Elect" just so that there could be a single plan of action.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by skookumchuck on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:16PM (#17474764)
If the market goes up under Trump, Obama gets the credit. If the market goes down under Trump, Trump gets the blame.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by null000 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:27PM (#17479749)
More like, if the market continues the upward trajectory it had under Obama, he gets the credit for establishing that trend. If Trump does something stupid to upset that trend (ill advised tax cuts or tariffs, for instance) he gets the blame. He'd get the credit if he meaningfully accelerated the growth we saw under Obama, but outside of a short bump after the tax cuts that saw a predictable correction shortly thereafter, he hasnt.

It's worth noting I do blame Obama era policies for wage and working condition stagnation/deterioration, which is the thing I actually care about (gdp and unemployment numbers are basically pointless if people who have jobs are living in third world conditions). That said, I have zero hope that the current administrations policies will reverse that trend in any way.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by skookumchuck on Saturday July 07, 2018 @04:06PM (#17480267)
The market went flat the year after Obama's big tax increase.

The market started rising promptly after Trump's election, presumably in anticipation of the coming tax cut.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by claydavisss on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:30PM (#17474867)
The President of the United States does not plan the economy.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by vvanders on Friday July 06, 2018 @05:30PM (#17475287)
They certainly set directions and champion initiatives.

Also, impose tariffs as we're seeing with the last 24 hours.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by asfasgasg on Friday July 06, 2018 @08:06PM (#17476038)
They can't make it, but there is some historical evidence that they (or, more broadly, the USG) can ruin it.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by orangecat on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:05AM (#17476925)
While Obamacare fell fall short of the medicare for all that is needed by business - imagine not having to worry about covering healthcare for employees for your startup

Businesses don't have to worry about being the primary source of food or housing for their employees either, and somehow this is true without the government taking over agriculture and real estate.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by kirbypineapple on Friday July 06, 2018 @01:56PM (#17473607)
We'll likely have an inverted yield curve before the end of 2018 for sure. Go back in history to see the correlation to past recessions:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/T10Y2Y

Obviously it's not as simple as that but it certain implies that something uncommon is happening in the financial markets.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by quotemstr on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:29PM (#17474401)
One wonders about the extent to which this correlation is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If everyone gets skittish when indicators look too good and reduce investment, they end up causing the recession that they predict!
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by jmalicki on Friday July 06, 2018 @07:41PM (#17475964)
An inverted yield curve isn't a random indicator to look for to bet on a recession... rather, it is a sign that the market has bet on a recession. Whether or not the market betting on a recession causes a recession is another question, but it is the skittishness that causes the indicator - so any time you see an inverted yield curve, investors have already become skittish and reduced investment targeted at certain dates.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by swyx on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:26PM (#17474841)
reflexivity is a wonderful thing.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by maxlybbert on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:47PM (#17474108)
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by kirbypineapple on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:25PM (#17474832)
Thanks for this counterpoint, it provides solid context for the data!
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by maxlybbert on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:30PM (#17474865)
It’s from the Federal Reserve, so people may discount it either from a belief the Fed doesn’t know what it’s doing, or a belief the Fed is biased in how it sees things.

But I was happy when it showed up recently. It provides a good explanation about the yield curve and a more specific way to look at things.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by lesss365 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:00PM (#17474200)
Also a correlation between low unemployment and past recessions. It's looking pretty grim...
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ChrisLomont on Friday July 06, 2018 @01:49PM (#17473540)
Conversely, over the last hundred years, the length between recessions has been increasing, especially compared to the previous century.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_Unit...

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by adventured on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:18PM (#17473834)
Australia has not had a recession since June of 1991. That simultaneously does not mean they can go another two decades without a recession next time, and it does not mean their expansion has to end shortly.

There's no rigid guide that the US expansion has to end anytime soon just because ten years was the longest expansion in the prior century. Perhaps this one will last 19 years and set a new benchmark, who knows (answer: nobody).

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by oblio on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:03PM (#17474668)
Australia had (has?) the benefit of feeding China (both actual food and minerals and other resources). At some point China will grow like a normal country.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by saudioger on Friday July 06, 2018 @11:38PM (#17476830)
No one said it's a rigid guide, it's just a bit of a signpost.

Could we double or triple the length between recessions? Sure, but I doubt it.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by rusk on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:21PM (#17473867)
There was a wobble around about 2k just after the olympics and just before the mineral boom.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:09PM (#17474254)
Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by joefranklinsrs on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:18PM (#17474318)
Yup, you also want to look at macroeconomic conditions around the world, tech trends, demographics, etc.

For example, 10 years ago we had quantitative easing done by US/Europe, which led to subprime loans. Now, all of the major economies around the world is tapped out with QE, so deflation is the theme going forward

Also, 10 years ago the dollar prime rate was 0%. Now it's close to 2%. That drives the emerging market capital outflow back to United States, since there is a great need to pay back dollar-denominated loans before rates go up even higher . This means as opposed to 10 years ago where there was capital diffusion from US into the emerging markets, now there's capital consolidation back into US, leading to great FDI for US.

10 years ago, US had the dual threat of energy crisis and offshore/globalization. today, US is the major oil/energy exporter, and robotics/automation/tariffs is bringing factories back to US.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by rsync on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:19PM (#17474794)
"For example, 10 years ago we had quantitative easing done by US/Europe, which led to subprime loans."

QE did not cause subprime loans - QE was the response to the effects of the subprime loan era.

There was no QE before the liquidity crisis and subsequent economic recession, although it had been discussed academically.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:21PM (#17474336)
Also the US federal government has been spending an extra $1 trillion in stimulus into the economy since 2009. We've had continuing budget resolutions since the ARRA was passed, and those always continue spending at the prior year's level. This is why the deficit went up $10 trillion. Or, if you're a half full kind of person, it's why private sector and foreign savings have gone up $10 trillion. Unfortunately it doesn't appear much of those new financial assets ended up in the hands of the so-called middle class.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by joefranklinsrs on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:30PM (#17474407)
If US is the beneficiary of the past few years of emerging markets deleveraging and economic stimulus, middle class is a big recipient of the benefits. For example, any middle class who invested in the stock market would have seen great returns, maybe close to 10X if they invested in amazon, netflix, or apple. also, US middle class income has been increasing, reaching highest level in the last year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-middle-cl....
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by otakucode on Friday July 06, 2018 @08:49PM (#17476205)
I am honestly curious... where does that income come from? We know it doesn't come from wages, because median wages of the lower 90% have risen less than 2% since 1980. Since the statistic is based on families, is it due to a larger number of 2-income families out of necessity?
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:34PM (#17474436)
For those of is comfortably in the top quintile, this is no doubt true. I'm certain many of us who post here have done quite well over the last decade. However the historical American middle class has, by and large, not benefited nearly as much. The vast majority of the gains have been captured by the top 0.1%.

Please don't mistake me for some kind of commie, PG's essay on the necessity for income inequality to drive innovation is convincing. But that doesn't mean we should celebrate shameless cronyism, kickbacks, and rent-seeking either.

Growing middle class income is nice, but income is a very poor metric to use to determine economic class. Net worth is what really matters.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by neffy on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:19PM (#17474782)
Er, no. 25 years ago we had Wall Street championing computer backed loan securitization, and repackaging of the those instruments into CDO's etc. That led over time to the subprime loans - as by creating the means of providing more debt instruments, Wall Street them had to find more borrowers. Which didn't end well - it never does. QE was done to stop the financial system imploding when those loans defaulted.

To explain the deflation story especially over the last 4 or 5 years, you need to look at the drop in Oil Prices - which as you point out, is primarily due to fracking and the US going from the #1 oil importer in the world to a small exporter. I wouldn't call the export aspect major statistically, but the change in oil trade terms certainly is.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by daxorid on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:59PM (#17474627)
> Now, all of the major economies around the world is tapped out with QE

Tapped out?

1. Kuroda and Draghi are merely taking a breather. BOJ and ECB balance sheets were still growing as recently as April 2018. SNB shows no signs of ending their relentless buying of the QQQs.

2. No global central banks are prevented from restarting QE or QE-like programs at any time of their choosing. The very second deflation again becomes a threat, you can bet your ass that Powell, Kuroda, and Draghi will step on the gas.

"Tapped out" implies limits to the volume of beer in the keg. Central banks have no limits. It is extremely trivial to begin printing money again if these governors/presidents will it so.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by jazzyk on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:14PM (#17474750)
The BOJ will eventually run out of domestic bonds to buy (at around 50% now) They also hold almost 80% of japanese ETFs.

What happens when they buy all 100% of ETFs and bonds? Venezuela?

https://www.japanmacroadvisors.com/page/category/economic-in...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-11/wtf-chart-day-boj-...

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by claydavisss on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:33PM (#17474880)
As long as the USD is the global reserve currency, the Fed can print its way to inflation at will. Even the most diehard bears during the last recession conceded deflation required the rejection of the USD as the world's reserve currency resulting in the nullification of the power of the Federal Reserve.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by pmiller2 on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:07PM (#17474705)
> deflation is the theme going forward

I sure haven't seen it. The price of gas, rent, food, etc. have gone nowhere but up for me. Is there any sector of the economy where deflation is actually happening right now?

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by throwawaymath on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:13PM (#17474287)
But it is a reasonable indicator. In the absence of superior evidence, it is better to intelligently work from past data than it is to throw darts.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:18PM (#17474320)
No, it isn't. Throwing darts is probably actually a better way to make predictions about a stochastic process than naive chartism.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by throwawaymath on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:35PM (#17474442)
I'm not going to rehash the finer points of a debate that stubbornly refuses to die among armchair economists online. But for the benefit of everyone else reading this thread:

1. The market, and the macroeconomic system in general, is not a purely stochastic process. This is a meme.

2. If by "naive chartism" you mean technical analysis, then sure, I agree. But if you're attempting to reduce the entirety of academic and industrial economic theory and practice to "naive chartism", then your middle brow dismissal here is both incorrect and breathtakingly arrogant.

Our entire economic system is predicated on the idea that there exist inefficiencies that can be profitably capitalized on through cause and effect. No one professionally or academically familiar with this idea claims it's a guarantee, but they also don't dismiss the concept of past data being a useful but imperfect measurement for the future state of things.

Even Fama walked back from the strong EMH, and to claim that we can derive no insight about the future from the past is to utterly dismantle everything we know about the credit debt cycle and market macrostructure. If you'd like to believe that then more power to you, but implicit in that belief is a fair amount of hubris.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by otakucode on Friday July 06, 2018 @08:54PM (#17476214)
Since you seem like you might know, I am curious... those who believe that inefficiencies in the market are what creates profit, and that markets will naturally act to reduce inefficiencies... how do they explain skyrocketing increases of profit and decades-long persistence and growth of profit which is supposed to be quickly reduced to zero by the optimizing market? It seems like a really obvious disproof of the concept on its face, but the concept doesn't seem to be losing any traction. Are companies simply better at generating inefficiency than the market is at eliminating it?
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @06:16PM (#17480928)
Food for thought. Thanks.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by User23 on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:49PM (#17474560)
You appear to be making an effort to come off as intelligent and I thought you might like to know that your accusations of arrogance when your post drips with it seriously undermines that.

You fail to grasp a fundamental reality: data about the past can only tell us about the past. Data about the present can be useful for making predictions. Some of it is so useful that using it is criminally prosecuted by the SEC.

By "naive" I mean any approach that relies solely on trends rather than an actual understanding of underlying causal factors. Sadly there are so many of those factors that a correct analysis is virtually impossible, but that's no excuse not to try since some factors tend to dominate others and those can sometimes be found.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/gurufocus_userupload/508204100.jpg

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by neverfone on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:20PM (#17474796)
Your third paragraph was enlightening and explained your position reasonably well. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but it seems like an interesting discussion.

I feel obliged to downvote you because of the first two paragraphs, why did you add them? You were trying to refute what you considered an "accusation of arrogance" with the most arrogant opening paragraph possible?

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by throwawaymath on Friday July 06, 2018 @05:48PM (#17475402)
I don't think this response should be getting downvoted; I'll upvote it for the third paragraph, which I largely agree with.

We can agree to disagree on the exact definition of "virtually impossible", but in the broad strokes I think we're both saying some factor analysis can be sometimes productive. In particular, I definitely agree that 1) an "actual understanding of underlying causal factors" is imperative, and 2) an approach based on trends (and trend following) is naive.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by slavik81 on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:05PM (#17474684)
Less is more. Your third paragraph makes a strong argument and cuts right to the heart of the disagreement. The rest is a distraction.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by dang on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:28PM (#17481685)
Other commenters already pointed out the main thing, but I need to let you know that we ban accounts that include personal attacks in their comments, so could you please make sure not to do that?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by InclinedPlane on Friday July 06, 2018 @06:38PM (#17475657)
Don't forget the N active trade wars we're in right now. Historically those have been bad for economic growth.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by LordHumungous on Friday July 06, 2018 @06:54PM (#17475730)
Yeah and full employment is also a recession predictor
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ProAm on Friday July 06, 2018 @01:47PM (#17473519)
It helps that we've been at war for ~17 years straight and are still largely quantitatively easing things.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by tastythrowaway on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:49PM (#17474559)
We've been in armed conflict somewhere or another for over a century straight
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ChrisLomont on Friday July 06, 2018 @01:50PM (#17473553)
Wars don't tend to grow economies, and QE stopped in 2014.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ProAm on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:02PM (#17473666)
QE stopped in 15, but the balance sheets were still full of them until the end of last year, we are just starting to get out of the effects of QE and to see how things will really look over the next few years [q] And war is very profitable and keeps money circulating, may not grow and economy but it will sure stabilize it while there are people to kill and things to break.

[q] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/the-fed-launched-qe-nine-yea...

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ChrisLomont on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:57AM (#17483543)
That article does not state QE purchases were made in 2015.

QE "Purchases were halted on 29 October 2014" [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#US_QE1,_QE...

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by monocasa on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:32PM (#17474423)
They do if you win, and don't fight the war on your own soil.
Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ChrisLomont on Monday July 09, 2018 @08:22AM (#17489682)
Not even necessarily then. Wars divert resources such as metals, chemicals, food, to be consumed overseas instead of in better economic activity. The US has been in wars for decades, adding trillions to the current debt and trillions more to future liability. Those trillions spent on infrastructure, science, education, etc., would have had a far better effect on the lives of people in the US than spending it on wars.

Think of the amount - trillions already spent on war. And trillions more in debt because of it.

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by chrisfinazzo on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:26PM (#17474374)
Tell me again how WWII didn't end the Depression because of the massive demand for workers and the associated economic activity they generated?

Confused...

Re:Say Hello to Full Employment by ChrisLomont on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:55AM (#17483535)
Cherry picking one case where one economy entered a war in a depression and exited out of a depression ignores all the other cases where wars made a country poorer.

Tell me again how WWII helped all the various economies involved and was not a net loss to the majority of them?

Confused...