It's even worse in (some parts of?) Germany. Most apartments come without a kitchen. The law says that they have to provide a sink and a stove, and they provide the cheapest stove there is and a little pedestal sink. You're expected to ask the landlord to remove these and order a kitchen, with all of the cabinets, countertops, sink, refrigerator, washing machine, and stove. When you move, you either try to take it all apart and make it fit in your new apartment, or try to sell it to the next tenant. With first month's rent, 3 months security deposit, and a kitchen, moving in to an apartment is very expensive.

Are the cabinets, countertops, sinks, etc very different in German apartments? (Simpler, less customized, more minimal) You're practically describing a full kitchen remodel in the US, which might run $10,000-20,000, or so I hear, with at least a week of labor...

It depends on the kitchen size and your expectations. Your price range describes kitchens that we would never buy for a rental apartment, but only for a self-owned one or a house you bought. The more typical kitchens in rental apartments cost between 1000-6000€, and take one or two days to build up (for a professional, although a lot of people do large parts of the work themselves or have talented friends do it, so it takes a little longer but is cheaper).

Many times people also bring their old appliances from their old kitchens with them, so they only need to buy the cabinets and stuff.

It still is one of the big pain points in moving: what happens with the old kitchen, and where do I get a new one from?

Thanks for the reply. Still hard to imagine! The cabinets and counters in particular, the mind boggles. I completely agree, it sounds like a huge pain point.

It's very hard to get unstuck from a local maximum

Most? I would say 'some' rather. It definitely was not the case in any of the 15 moves I took part in.

But don’t you tend to stay there longer? Whereas here (Australia) it’s not uncommon to move every year – don’t anyone dare argue with me there, I speak from bitter experience – my understanding is that in Germany people tend to lease a place for 5, 10, more years?

> Whereas here (Australia) it’s not uncommon to move every year – don’t anyone dare argue with me there, I speak from bitter experience

Can confirm; you get pretty sick of moving every 6/12 months, but on the plus side, you do get a decent amount of variety. :)

That sounds horrible. I'd have no intention to make the place nice, to truly make it my home - what's the point if I'm probably elsewhere in a year?

It's a Quebec thing. I moved to Quebec a few years ago and had to buy a whole set of appliances, as every other place I lived in always came with them. Looking at other places around me as well, none of them come with appliances.

Where? Lots of rent w/ furnished appliances in Montreal.

If it's a rental, and doesn't include appliances, of course you'd take appliances you purchase since you own them.

In every place I've rented in Ontario, appliances were included -- which is common but not universal.

I've only owned two houses, where it's a matter of negotiation. The first place we purchased from a couple downsizing to an apartment, and the terms of sale just included everything. We ended up replacing the fridge and stove after a couple years anyway. Also learned a lesson there, because they included an old fridge in the basement that we didn't need but figured whatever, why not. We never even used it, and then refinished the basement and ended up having to pay to have it disposed.

The second place left nothing but the dishwasher, while the people buying our place offered some money for all our appliances. We took our new fridge and stove - since it wasn't really worth it to us to sell <2 year old stuff and then have to buy brand new at retail price - and sold them the rest for next to nothing (or maybe just left them, I can't remember).

I certainly don't think it's odd to take appliances that you own with you when you move to a new apartment without appliances. My point is that my experience everywhere else I've lived is that the landlord owns the appliances and renters just use whatever appliances come with the unit.

This is common in Australia.

You move everything that isn’t part of the rental.

So you move your fridge, washing machine and dryer, and microwave.

The stove, oven and dishwasher are usually the landlord’s.

In North America the refrigerator and clothes washer/dryer are usually the landlord's, but sometimes people own their own clothes stuff -- I think self-ownership is becoming less common with time, but only have anecdata to back it up.

If I ever rent out my place it will absolutely include the appliances (fridge, stove, dishwasher, washing machine) and probably some bits of furniture like bookcases, because it'd take a whole team of people working for half a day to get it all down 4 extremely tight flights of stairs, and that's half the depreciated value of it all right there anyway.

Washer/dryer is often included, because the law states that if there isn’t a suitable outdoor area, some sort of drying facility must be supplied. (In VIC it does, anyway.)

It's pretty common in France as well, unless it's a furnished rental, the renter brings their own fridge, stove, etc.

In Australia you bring your own whitegoods but stoves are usually built into the kitchen.

What do you mean with appliances?

Dishwasher? Washing machine? Coffee maker? Sink? Stove?

It seems crazy to leave a coffee maker.

But it’s equally crazy to remove fitted appliances that presumably have widths/depths/heights specific to the kitchen.

Either that or you have to build kitchens in such a way that it’s possible - e.g always free-standing fridges with no fitted cupboards on top etc.

> Either that or you have to build kitchens in such a way that it’s possible - e.g always free-standing fridges with no fitted cupboards on top etc.

That's pretty much the case in Quebec. My current place has cupboards over the fridge, but they are pretty high up, so you can fit any non-humongous fridge in there.

I'm really not much of a fan of the 1st of the July thing though. Finding movers is such a pain, and they charge 300% of the price of the off-season (every single other day of the year).

Interesting. I've never heard a sink referred to as an appliance. Anyway, I was referring to larger appliances such as stoves, fridges, dishwashers, etc. Certainly people bring smaller things like coffee makers as well, but that never seemed unusual to me.

a sink is a plumbing fixture, not an appliance.

Stove, refrigerator and washing machines norrmally moves with you in Quebec.

Source: I always lived in the province of Quebec so far.

Wondering the same thing. In the US it seems people leave ovens and stoves behind and sometimes washing machines but not always. In Germany people move all that stuff.

I think it's regional. When I lived in the midwest all of the appliances came with the apartment. Now I live in Los Angeles and you have to bring your own fridge.

That doesn't seem to be a consistent thing in LA anyhow. But yeah definitely some apartments dont have fridges supplied.

You’ll get the coffee machine out my cold, dead hands. It’s 35kgs too, good luck.

what coffee machine do you have? :o

La Cimbali Junior, older model. It’s fantastic. New ones are heavier and better but seriously pricey.