This issue comes again and again, I'm getting really tired of this "issue". After all this time this is the top comment, while discussing a really good convertible?

He mentions that people don't trust Windows for savely restoring their session, but if i'm not mistaking, it's Ubuntu ( i think) that had such a bug for a VERY long time ( https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399 ). I have never heard such problems on Windows...

It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information. Ubuntu did it too and even integrated Amazon in the search field.

You can even see what it sends: https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-window...

PS. Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes.

PS 2. I also use Ubuntu a lot, which is why i can compare it too Windows on experience. Can't compare to other distro's, if i didn't use it. Both have their pro's / cons.

Nico I ha estado major issues and they were the original reason for switching from Windows. I'd love you feedback on them.

1. Apple doesn't slow down due to not being rebooted. I rarely reboot for this reason; basically only for system updates.

2. Suspend I believe is the service? I just close the lid, open, login and keep working. This last time I used Windows wasn't possible. From crashing applications and the direct loss of data due to that crash to not waking and needing me to reboot the whole system.

3. My entire experience with Windows aside from the need to frequently reboot is that it always slows down from the first day of purchase until the day I lose my mind over the speed of it's activity and go buy a new one... This slow down is the slower more incideous one that progresses over months until nothing not even a reboot nurses enough out of it to make it performant anymore.

These are literally the three issues that cause me to be terrified of switching. When Apple did the 'it just works' commercials I switched, because I didn't want to be so involved in the OS. I wanted to just use it and do my things, which aren't nearly as intensive as some others ex. I just do front end work minus the crazy designer apps that require huge RAM and expensive Graphics Cards.

If these 3 things are no longer issues on Windows then I'd really consider it because they are the only reason I'm with Apple at this time. Since Jobs died they've gotten even worse at servicing their MacOS base that it's crazy to be using their product at this point, since they clearly don't give a shit about us.

Lastly I used to use Linux back in the day, but left it because the lips stick (GUI) doesn't abstract away enough of the day to day tasks and I refuse to be a 'programmer' when I just doing regular stuff like writing emails, productivity tools and looking at photos. I'd totally be game if losing a file on download wasn't still a distinct possibility along with the anxiety of not knowing if an app was installed right or full removed; an issue I have with Windows too btw, but not with MacOS.

I reboot once a month, never have an issue.

I do research the laptop that I buy though, but can't think of anything else, except my laptops are about 1000€, not 500 :)

> It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information. Ubuntu did it too and even integrated Amazon in the search field.

Not sure why you think that is a justification. People weren't happy about that either.

Comparison to ubuntu is silly. Comparison should be with osx.

Apple also tried ads ( failed) and is a lot more expensive. And as said in the comment, i don't use/care about osX. I do use Ubuntu a lot, that's why i compared it.

Look at those prices again, Apple is not “a lot more expensive” in fact the surface book cost as much or more. at least apples machines are high quality, when was the last time you saw a 10 year old PC laptop running like it was new?

You are targeting the Surface book, while i mentioned ( everywhere) Windows in general and a laptop of 1000 € ( in another comment).

The discussion was also about hibernate or suspending, where some seem to complain about. I have never had issues with it, i mentioned issues about it in Ubuntu.

--> at least apples machines are high quality -> Didn't read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17413572 + https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15496745 + https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13797042 ? Top dollar for a failing critical component. Yeah, you are so right ;) - you can keep your device :)

I will keep working on my Convertible HP Spectre x360 with docking station for attaching 2 external monitors through the USB-C standard on Windows :) .

Thank you for the links.

No problem, thanks for a decent response ;). I'm always cautious when it's a "we vs them" story. In case of Windows it could be vs Apple, Google, Linux... So :)

> Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes.

Probably due to the fact that you're using whataboutism[1] as a defence rather than tackling the fact that Windows does log user activity and report it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I mentioned what Windows does and talked about something else i can compare.

My relevant point was : It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information as the user activity is also anonymous.

I don't see you making a relevant comment though.

> My relevant point was : It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information as the user activity is also anonymous.

Firstly, how do you know it is truly anonymous? And is this anonymisation being done on the users machine, or one Microsoft's servers? If the latter, MS has access to unanonymised data.

Secondly, cross-referenced with other 'anonymised' data sets it is quite possible to de-anonymise people. I'm not convinced there is any such thing as a truly anonymous data set anymore, not when it comes to data collected from a users device.

They are pretty specific without hiding the fact what they collect here : https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-feedback-diag...

A governement can automate it to follow it back to the user, but a corporation can't.

They are the only ones that show it this straight forward, can you find a page like that on one of the other big tech companies? ( Apple, Google, Amazon)

TL;DR; You can follow it back to a specific device, but you can't follow it back to "who is the user". Which seems to be a valid business decision, considering the complex matter they are in ( the biggest variety of devices and users).

You can also check it for yourselve: https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/24/16927056/microsoft-window...

Telemetry can also be disabled

This seems to be the worst, if a part of a document contains your personal data, when you are working on it and it crashes.

Full data includes all Basic and Enhanced data, and also turns on advanced diagnostic features that collect additional data from your device, such as system files or memory snapshots, which may unintentionally include parts of a document you were working on when a problem occurred. This information helps us further troubleshoot and fix problems. If an error report contains personal data, we won't use that information to identify, contact, or target advertising to you. This is the recommended option for the best Windows experience and the most effective troubleshooting.

Personally I just downvote someone immediately when they mention anything about being downvoted in their post. It's called losing the game.

> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger and submits all my activity to all major governments (maybe only one today and “all” in a few years when my data gets sold, shared or stolen).

Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern?

Don't get me wrong, I don't like these as-you-type-send-it-up search interfaces. But if we're gonna call companies on doing this, Microsoft has scaled back its analytics more than Apple and its App store have.

Apple deserves the same scrutiny, but Spotlight Suggestions is designed for privacy. It uses randomly generated frequently rotated IDs and is easy to disable.

Disabling Windows 10 telemetry is difficult and cannot be done via user settings. Microsoft has also been adding telemetry to other products such as VSCode and .NET Core.

The only assurance you have that Apple isn't producing a profile is their honest promise. Nothing stops them as it stands other than some hand waving.

And you cannot disable application telemetry in the App store which everyone has, including Apple's apps. Apple's approach doesn't stop anyone from turning their apps into a privacy disaster.

But sure. Windows telemetry is unique. Right.

I would prefer if they’d formalize their promises into some kind of gaurantee that was enforceable. I believe them today, but what about tomorrow? We’ve all seen companies change dramatically (for both better and worse) and do things that were extremely unethical and/or illegal. Companies are run by people after all.

except for MS windows is a product, and for apple macos is a means to an end. plus apple doesn’t advertise in my app launcher or then use their data in their search engine (that they don’t have)

> Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern?

They aren't. Neither is Ubuntu[0]. Luckily there are plenty of other operating systems that take your privacy seriously.

Join the bright side.

[0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html

Realistically, you probably shouldn't be running them on anything with Intel Management Engine, which has a Minix OS with an IP stack that you don't control.

This. What does it matter what OS you are running if you want nothing to leak unless you do complete vetting of the hardware as well. Preferably by ordering many in the same configuration and dismantling one to see it does not have anything extra. And if you do that, there is still the case of the firmware of oh so many components that are integrated to a modern pc. How do you know your network stack is not spying on you.

To be dogmatic, either you have to have enormous amount of resources to create your own secure hardware, or abandon all computing devices.

I prefer using off the shelf computing devices. The only level of security I excpect of them is that no-one will abuse my credit card if I don't act stupid.

>How do you know your network stack is not spying on you

Meh, that's true, but you can always monitor your device from an upstream router or network traffic monitor.

I'm not sure that Intel ME fits into most peoples privacy threat model the same way that OS and application analytics do.

Ubuntu used to, and Apple's measures are wholly ineffective. They're token gestures.

But I don't trust any given computer os very much. They're all projects run by folks that have given me 0 reason to trust them.

One of the most insufferable parts of your post is the assumption I don't use Linux as a primary OS. I do. I hate it slightly less than OSX. But they're all awful in equal but unique measures.

I'm sorry if the post came across as assuming. I just wanted to spread awareness, not necessarily aimed at you.

There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either.

To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less...

> There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either.

If I could use them for anything besides bespoke server projects and really awful desktop environments I might be more interested. As it stands, they're of no use professionally, I've had poor luck on the kinds of hardware I am interest in using as a hobby, and they make Linux seem thoughtful and snappy when it comes to desktop environments.

> To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less...

I'm trying not to be too Negative Online, so don't get me started on that. :D

disclaimer: MS employee, this is solely my opinion

Does the GDPR do anything to put your concerns on this issue to rest?

(By those regulations, MS is required, under penalty of very large fines, to not do what you are accusing them of doing.)

It's my understanding that companies only need to comply with GDPR when providing services to end users in the EU and that companies that comply with GDPR globally are only doing so due to resource constraints that Microsoft doesn't face.

However, I'm probably less informed on GDPR than the average HN user, so it's very possible that my understanding is off-base or incomplete.

> Does the GDPR do anything to put your concerns on this issue to rest?

If the company starts doing things right ONLY after there's some legislation making the wrong thing illegal, what does that tell you about the company?

I think you're misreading the statement - he's implying that what they actually already do is in compliance.

It will, after I see MS getting caught and going through a lawsuit which results in tools providing accountability.

MS already lets you see and delete what they collect on you at account.microsoft.com/privacy

We did a lot of work to comply and provide these tools and people still think MS is part of some grand conspiracy.

Once bitten, twice shy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype_security#Eavesdropping_b...

Why do you expect people to trust corporations at their word? Specially someone like Microsoft!

> We did a lot of work to comply and provide these tools and people still think MS is part of some grand conspiracy.

Given Microsoft's history I'm not sure why you're surprised.

I doubt intelligence agencies are limited by the same standards.

I guess you should stay away from North Korea's Red Star Linux, in that case.

. this plus they own linkedin, skype, a ton of media, and now github as well as have plugins into almost every major company/government in the world via their Active Directory.

More Americans use Apple products. If anything the American Government would be more likely to target Apple products for domestic mass surveillance programs.

> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger

I found the problem