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Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by xoa on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:14AM (#17338394)
Does anyone know if there is any party or even organization anywhere right now pushing proper utilization of the free market to at least internalize the current cost of CO2 emissions (though that by itself could not solve the historical lack). It seems like this would actually be one of the few places where a free market should work extremely well: simply set the price of emitting a ton of CO2 at the ratcheted price (defined by bid) of industrial removal (time period of a day or less) a ton plus some assured margin (7%? exact number could be figured out by experts). The government would serve as the pivot, emitters would pay in units at the existing price, so a pool of credits per ton would collect. Anyone who could meet a minimum volume level (the whole point is massive industrial scale removal) would be able to bid for those in whatever amounts they could handle per day/week/month. If they figured out a new scalable way to remove a ton more cheaply, they'd be able to underbid anyone on a more expensive method and collect the much wider margin until they used up the pool at that price, while meanwhile the price for emitters would automatically be adjusted down to the new cost plus minimum margin. The government might have to get the ball rolling by funding an initial plant, but after that it should be self sustaining, and would it make energy prices directly embody the emission cost in a very clean way that would allow the rest of the economy to locally optimize as necessary.

Obviously there would be many low level implementation details to work through, but this seems obvious enough that I assume it's been proposed many times. However I haven't been able to figure out the right search terms to find any papers developing it further. I've seen plenty of carbon pricing schemes proposed but all of them seem to use pretty arbitrary rates rather then simply directly internalizing the goal of zero net emissions and letting a market on each side sort out how best the meet that goal in any given place. I'd love it if anyone knows where I could better search, after some recent work I do have access to college resources again so academic journals would be fine too. There are also of course plenty of awful schemes by various political parties pushing various subsidies or "efficiency improvements" or whatever in a command-control fashion, but that's not great either. Any HNers who have ideas/sources would be awesome.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by JTbane on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:33AM (#17338525)
As my ECON 101 teacher said many times, the way to handle negative externalities is to tax them. The free market cannot handle this.

Look at it this way- say you can make a ton of money manufacturing widgets, but you also make a ton of CO2. There is no law against this discharge, so you do it anyway. Climate change might cause you many problems, but it's 50 years or more until you start to personally feel the heat. This is a classic "tragedy of the commons" scenario.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by xoa on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:55AM (#17338681)
>As my ECON 101 teacher said many times, the way to handle negative externalities is to tax them. The free market cannot handle this.

To take your second part first, taxing is part of the free market. The free market is a creation of and tool for use of government. Regulation to ensure cost internalization, information symmetry, contractual enforcement, and so forth are all basics for it to work at all. And a market has no goals of its own nor does it take into account human floor levels, it's up to society (and in turn its government) to choose goal states and then use all tools to find the most efficient routes towards reaching and then maintaining them.

To go back to the first, you've just restated the question: how do you "tax" the externality? How do you find the right rate? How do you adjust it and account for changing factors? It's government that sets the goal, but government tends to be bad at figuring out implementations and then reacting with high temporal or spatial granularity. In this case we have two linked problems, and we don't care about the "how" at all so long as its within framework requirements, we care about the end of "net zero carbon increase in the atmosphere" (or long term dealing with past emissions, though that'd require taxing other sources). This is exactly the sort of situation that's an ideal fit for using "market" (massively crowd sourced value apportionment utilizing capitalism) to optimize. On the one side is energy generation, which must directly pay per unit for the cost of dealing with their own emissions, and on the other side is finding the ways to most efficiently remove each unit and then collect the money. That would be expected to vary over time and by location, and to feedback into each other (and overall demand/efficiency) via the simple mechanism of price.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by yosito on Monday June 18, 2018 @11:00AM (#17338723)
I think this is where "liquid democracy" projects like Democracy Earth may be into something. In a way they're seeking to turn government decision making into a market. https://www.democracy.earth
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by arethuza on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:41AM (#17338591)
You keep saying "The government" - we have lots of governments, with a lot of variation in how effective and corrupt they are. I'd expect that in total a lot of people would get the permission to exit CO2, a lot of money would be exchanged and somehow very little CO2 would actually be extracted.

Maybe if we had a single "world government" but then the cure (not to the mention the process required to get to that state) might be worse than the disease!

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by beat on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:41AM (#17338592)
Carbon pricing is a feature of most interpretations of Georgist economics, a model that proposes fees on the industrial consumption of things that are or should be commonly owned (air, water, the radio spectrum, fossil fuels, etc), and redistributing the income. The Alaska Permanent Fund is an example - companies are charged a hefty fee for extracting Alaskan oil, which goes into a trust fund. That trust is then distributed equally to all Alaskan residents.

This is probably a more effective approach than the usual cap-and-trade carbon tax models.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by fulafel on Monday June 18, 2018 @11:53PM (#17343703)
Here's EU's system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Tradin...

(nitpick: s/the free market/market mechanisms/ - free market implies lack of regulation and government involvement)

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by logancg on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:35AM (#17338536)
Sounds interesting. The two big barriers to this system are:

1. Political buy-in to set a cost of carbon emission 2. Economic viability of removal (often referred to as carbon capture and storage, or CCS)

1 is non-trivial, but happening. Canada has a provincial carbon tax measure which requires setting a price. A price is also defined in the European cap-and-trade system.

2 is also non-trivial, as the economics are pretty bad right now. However, CCS costs are projected to decrease rapidly. [0]

Right now, integrating CCS is on average more expensive than purchasing carbon credits. Carbon offsetting companies are, to your point, an example of private enterprise filling a gap.

[0] http://www.ccsassociation.org/why-ccs/affordability/

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by bdcravens on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:38AM (#17338564)
> Anyone who could meet a minimum volume level (the whole point is massive industrial scale removal)

Just shard your operation so that no one "company" exceeds that level.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by xoa on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:46AM (#17338631)
I don't understand what you're saying here, could you clarify? Why would an operation want to be prevented from bidding on collecting the money from carbon removal?
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by bdcravens on Monday June 18, 2018 @11:33AM (#17338993)
My mistake - I thought that statement was tied to "emitters would pay in units at the existing price, so a pool of credits per ton would collect"

My thought was that you'd have to be over N volume of CO2 emissions to have a mandated payment.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by collyw on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:22AM (#17338451)
So far the free market has failed spectacularly at addressing global warming.
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by xoa on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:45AM (#17338619)
The free market has never been used to address global warming (it's badly used in general in fact, possibly in part because few people seem to actually understand what it is or even internalize that it's a tool at all, not an end, and like any tool there are applications it is a poor fit for). Amongst the foundational requirements for a free market to work at all is that the price should embody all costs. There are some problems of course where this simply isn't very practical, particularly ones that are heavily non-linear/non-reversible. But that's not the case for carbon emissions, in fact it's a pretty good fit. The problem is "release of fossil/long term stored carbon into the atmosphere", it's easy to measure at various points at the fuel level, and since it's a gas that will evenly diffuse worldwide and is uniform removal from the atmosphere can take place anywhere in the world by anyone using any method. That makes it well suited to abstraction, with a market system on each side of the equation and government acting as a pivot. Wouldn't even require global buy-in to make a difference given that the energy market is primarily globalized anyway, if a few major polities decided to require it and also made access to their own markets take it into account it'd have a major effect no matter what anyone else wanted.
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by collyw on Monday June 18, 2018 @04:11PM (#17341294)
We got carbon trading a while back. That doesn't seem to have made any difference whatsoever.
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by organsnyder on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:36AM (#17338541)
We need to price in the externality. A carbon tax is one way to do that. Instead, we have various direct approaches—fuel efficiency standards, subsidies...—that work with varying degrees of success.
Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by algo646464 on Monday June 18, 2018 @12:50PM (#17339685)
The free market cannot suitably address the "tragedy of the commons".

If all companies currently follow expensive but environment-friendly processes, a rouge company can undercut them by following a cheaper but environment-harmful process. This will either force other companies to follow the rogue company, or they go out of business.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by perl4ever on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:35PM (#17356928)
"The free market cannot suitably address the "tragedy of the commons"."

You seem to be implicitly saying that property rights cannot be established and enforced, as this is how markets are used to solve such problems. Similar things have been done though, no?

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by jchook on Monday June 18, 2018 @11:21AM (#17338875)
The US Government subsidizes our oil addiction. If the costs were apparent at the gas tank, a “free market” would correct in a blink.
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Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by pitaj on Monday June 18, 2018 @11:52AM (#17339163)
1. We haven't had anything close to a free market for many years.

2. The market pulling billions of people out of poverty is probably the opposite of failure.

Re:What happened last time it was as warm as it’s going to g... by lozenge on Monday June 18, 2018 @10:44AM (#17338614)
That sounds like Citizens Climate Lobby, which supports a carbon tax with a tax on imports from countries that don't implement a similar carbon tax.