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Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @09:03PM (#17299434)
Kolyma Stories is probably the best book about the reality of communism.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by jpatokal on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @09:47PM (#17299632)
Kolyma Stories and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago are an incredible pair. For Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag is deeply personal and his rage seeps through every page. Shalamov is the complete opposite, and his book is an inhumanly dispassionate sequence of vignettes of camp life. Some of the mental images stick with you for life, like the zek (camp inmate) who broke into the camp larder, barricaded the door from the inside, and feasted by gnawing on raw, frozen bacon. He was still smiling when they broke in, dragged him out, beat him and threw him into the isolation cells, because at least his belly was full...
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by fractallyte on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @05:04AM (#17301446)
The Gulag Archipelago is available here: https://archive.org/details/TheGulagArchipelago-Threevolumes
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by foobiekr on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @10:37PM (#17299824)
Gulag Archipelago looks daunting. It's an insane amount of material. Must one read all three volumes?
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by jpatokal on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:56AM (#17300592)
I found it quite accessible and have read it end to end twice. It's not a Russian heavy literature doorstop a la War & Peace, but an encyclopedic one-man survey of every aspect of the camps, roughly in chronological order: first the the history of labor camps in Russia, then the journey of a typical inmate (arrest, interrogation, trial, transit, arrival, life and death in the camps for prisoners and guards alike, freedom [1]), then the slow winding down of the system.

[1] In some sense, at least; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by jfk13 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:29AM (#17300484)
For a less intimidating introduction, you might like to try One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by dragandj on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:27AM (#17301831)
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich is a good book, but nothing like the Gulag Archipelago. Ivan Denisovich was officially supported by the USSR in a brief period after Stalin's death, as a book that talks about the imprisonment, but waters it down so much as to make it not-so-terrible. Gulag Archipelago is much more interesting, and also much more eye-opening.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:42AM (#17300541)
The problem with* Gulag* is that (in Russian) it is quite badly written, unlike Shalamov's stories which real literature even before editors got to them. History-wise, there are better sources, too.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by archagon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:59AM (#17300608)
Strongly disagree. Reading for the first time in Russian and finding that it flows wonderfully. Solzhenitsyn has a unique tone of voice: at once conversational, ironic, sadly humorous, and full of pathos. His imagery can be breathtaking, e.g. when he's talking about the different rivers of prisoners flowing in and out of the gulag system. When referencing his own life, his sense of narrative pacing is superb. And when it comes to matters of the soul, he has a way with words that few others can touch. Indeed, there's a number of what I would consider "best of all time" quotes in the first few chapters alone.

  If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere 
  insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate 
  them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and 
  evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to 
  destroy a piece of his own heart?

  During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place; sometimes it 
  is squeezed one way by exuberant evil and sometimes it shifts to allow
  enough space for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at 
  various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. 
  At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name
  doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.
(I wrote down: "names are leaky abstractions.")

It's true that there's some dry and boring material, but I can hardly blame the author for that: he's the last living source for so many of these stories. I can picture him sitting at his typewriter, trying in vain to resurrect the final, fading memories of the countless missing people who touched his life—nameless and nearly faceless, probably buried in some unmarked grave—while waiting for the KGB to burst in any minute and destroy his decade of work. How much more painful must the process of editing be when the things you cut are fragments of human lives that might as well have never existed once they leave the page?

Unfortunately, there's now a contingent of the Russian population that denounces Solzhenitsyn for reasons of pure nationalism. It makes me so sad when I see Solzhenitsyn mentioned in the Runet, because it's almost always extremely vitriolic...

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:21AM (#17300700)
If Russian is not you native language I can see how it can seem to flow nicely. Unfortunately, if it is, Solzhenitsyn reads like a foreign language. Even words, let alone sentence structures, are very much not Russian. Words, really, he was just inventing on the fly and you have to guess what they could possibly mean.

Obviously, this is to a large degree a matter of taste, but I am far from the only Russian speaker finding Solzhenitsyn's language highly stilted and artificial. The English translation you're quoting is much better.

Interestingly, same is very often said about Vonnegut's translations into Russian.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by archagon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:33AM (#17300760)
Well, it is my first language, so I disagree.

I am, however, listening to an audiobook version, so maybe it's different on the page.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @03:01AM (#17300895)
I also don't think he's a bad writer or that his Russian is quite that strange (in Archipelago, specifically) but I'd be remiss not to mention his literary style has been had its share of critics, with Vladimir Voinovich putting in what is perhaps the top effort in the genre. On the off chance either of you have not run across it before (in which case, read the whole book) [Симыч here is the parody stand-in for Solzhenitsyn]:

https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/11816/25/Voiinovich_-...

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @03:52PM (#17306379)
For sure. Voynovich may not be quite as profound as Solzhenitsyn but his writings are actually pleasurable (IMO) to read. I've heard ерфе the real Karnavalov was not amused.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:07PM (#17307409)
It's hard to imagine anyone mentioned there was particularly entertained.

'Invented words' is what made me think of it, I don't think it's much in evidence in GULAG but it definitely pop up in his fiction. In Voinovich's parodic telling, it's due to an excessive reliance on the 19th century 'Dahl's Explanatory Dictionary'. It's a perfectly pointed barb.

I think where GULAG succeeds is in exactly what he puts on the front page "an experiment in literary investigation". Everything from 'В круге первом' through 'Как нам обустроить Россию' and later gets progressively weirder and, well, to put it politely, not better.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by dragandj on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:35AM (#17301873)
I am a speaker of a Slavic language other than Russian, speak some russian, read Gulag Archipelago in English, and found it to flow wonderfully. OTOH, I never liked the style of Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, and most other Russian classics. So maybe Gulag is not up to Russian literary tradition, but for me that's a good thing :)
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:19AM (#17300692)
This is the one that I often think of - he wrote it about the response to the publication of Ivan Denisovich.

"если первая крохотная капля правды разорвалась как психологическая бомба - что же будет в нашей стране, когда Правда обрушится водопадами? А -- обрушится, ведь не миновать."

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by romanhn on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:20AM (#17300216)
I listened to an unabridged audiobook version - 67 hours of laughingly bad, home-made narration in Russian. Even then, it was easily one of the most riveting books I have come across.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by archagon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:01AM (#17300616)
Was it this one, by chance? https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4011302

I thought the reading was superb, even though the quality was a bit scratchy.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by romanhn on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:01AM (#17303097)
No, it was the Ignatiy Lapkin version (linked from that page). That guy was something else.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:30AM (#17300259)
You don't have to. Big chunks of it can be difficult to follow without the historical context Solzhenitsyn assumes the reader has - that you'd have to get elsewhere. More importantly though, you don't really have to read it in order, you can poke around the ToC and find stuff that doesn't require knowledge of the details of the early show trials, etc. You can hop over to the chapter on arrests or escape attempts and see how it goes.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by dragandj on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @06:23AM (#17301811)
It's long, but very interesting. It's much better to read it whole, than some abridged version.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by kinsomo on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @10:56PM (#17299892)
I read a ~400 page abridged version, but I do feel I missed out.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by cwyers on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:26AM (#17300466)
I've read the original three volume version, which I got from a library. I own the abridged. You do miss a lot, but you can still get a lot out of the single-volume version.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by allthing on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @09:22PM (#17299518)
I would also highly recommend "Gulag" by Anne Applebaum. She covers the entire history of the Gulag in great detail from the Revolution to the fall of the Soviet Empire.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @11:54PM (#17300111)
I'm not making some 'it wasn't real communism, man!' defense but those books are about the reality of prison life under the peak of (communist) totalitarian repression. There was a lot more to the reality. Even the Soviets eventually figured out that level of murderous control was an entirely unnecessary waste of human life and the communism communismed on for decades.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by cwyers on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:43AM (#17300546)
That's not entirely accurate. They did figure out that Stalin's level of repression was unnecessary, or at least they lacked the conviction to carry it out. But in "The Gulag Archipelago" by Solzhenitsyn, he documents how much of the apparatus continued forward into Khrushchev's regime. He details the town of Novocherkassk, where workers went on strike in June of 1962. Tanks and troops were dispatched. The strikers were fired upon. The wounded were rounded up, and the families of the wounded and the dead were shipped off to Siberia. He talks about other incidents. He talks about how the religious were still treated the same as under Stalin. Life after (or even before) Stalin was not free from such abuses.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:04AM (#17300630)
Kolyma Stories is probably the best book about the reality of communism.

Is what I'm replying to. It's a very narrow slice of a much bigger thing.

Life after (or even before) Stalin was not free from such abuses.

I'm not sure why you think I said anything of the sort.

As to 'figured out', no, of course they didn't have a sudden epiphany while taking a shower one morning. The paranoid nutcase that ruled them died.

The thing that I was getting at, really, is that there is a fairly common but mistaken notion that the Soviet system was all about overt repression; that it depended, throughout its entire lifespan on the direct and immediate threat of deadly state violence. It didn't and that's, in many ways, a more interesting and disturbing thing to consider.

This isn't a particularly original or new thought - if you've run across, say, Masha Gessen's recent writing, it's often reiterated (as a kind of starting point) there as well.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:30AM (#17300745)
While it did get quite a it better after Stalin's death, in a sense that people wouldn't keep an "emergency bag" of things one could take to prison by the bedside, with pretty much everyone knowing someone who had passed through the Gulag, a lot of Gulag has been internalized in the populace. The evil was very much banal, as it were, and the changes were mostly a matter of degree. Being seen reading "Kolyma Stories" would have you spending a few years on the "Sunny Kolyma" as it was called.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by ptaipale on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:12AM (#17301237)
I find it odd that someone downvotes your comment. It's not snarky, or trivial, it just states an opinion. It appears someone doesn't like the opinion.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:28AM (#17301294)
It happens. It will almost certainly sort itself out in a few hours, though.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:23AM (#17301272)
a lot of Gulag has been internalized in the populace.

Ah, exactly - I don't think that's why it continued to work. Consider, for example, how quickly and effectively the system replicated itself all over Eastern Europe. Those places had their bloody coups and brief periods of Stalinist terror but nothing of the Soviet scale and duration. Many avoided outright forced collectivization, a few didn't even require a permanent occupying Soviet army. And it still worked.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:16PM (#17306569)
Ah, but was it really that effective? Sure, Eastern European countries stayed within the Soviet sphere (Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 showed what happens if you don't) but they split at the earliest opportunity. While Russia is backtracking if not to communism than to glorification of USSR and Stalin.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @05:25PM (#17307088)
It was enormously effective. Forty years, in half a dozen countries. Forty years in which the rest of the world saw the Wirtschaftswunder from the ashes of Western Europe and Japan, decolonialization, the end of legally mandated racism in the US (on top of its own post-war economic and population boom). We got party meetings and retransmissions of Vremya on Friday nights. It still worked without anyone (statistically) going to the Kolyma, sunny or otherwise, without the voronki roaming the streets every night.

Even if we can't agree how or why, it's on us to always think about it in the hope it might in some small way prevent it from happening again. In the places that we left or the places we came to.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Thursday June 14, 2018 @01:33AM (#17309537)
It lasted as long as Soviet troops were stationed nearby and ready to roll in at a moment's notice. As soon as it became clear that they wouldn't, the Wall fell, and the rest followed. In most places even relatively bloodlessly.

And because you didn't have the Big Terror to the same extent, life in Eastern Europe was quite a bit better than in the USSR. When we visited a friend in Prague in 1985, he had a collection of "anti-soviet" literature (including Kolyma Stories that would be enough to send anyone in USSR reliving Shalamov's experience. And he didn't even hide it...

[dead]
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by AlexB138 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:44AM (#17302947)
I would suggest that Abu Ghraib represented Imperialism more than Capitalism or Democracy. But I would also say it's a false comparison. There's a massive difference in frequency and scale.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by anticodon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:16AM (#17300205)
It's a one-sided and highly exaggerated view.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:22AM (#17300229)
It's pretty hard to cover whatever the other side is when you're stuck in a prison camp. Not sure in what way it's 'exaggerated', though. The worse stuff, nobody was left to write about.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by anticodon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:54AM (#17300585)
Parent comment was saying that these are the books to read if you want to know life under communist rule. I wanted to say that it's not true. This kind of literature describe only a small part of a life.

Not everybody was living in a prison camp in USSR, not even a majority of the population. This kind of literature was funded and promoted by the West because it supports the western society discourse.

Person who judges life in USSR by these kind of books will have a very skewed opinion.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by cwyers on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:17AM (#17300685)
> This kind of literature was funded and promoted by the West because it supports the western society discourse.

I mean, I'd agree that the material is a thin slice of the society, but come on. These are real personal narratives of people who lived through these experiences. The implication that "the West" is why these books exist, not just why we're able to read them, is absurd.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by jhbadger on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @09:55AM (#17303045)
There was real injustice, but it is important to also realize the vast usefulness these narratives had to the West (and in more recent times descriptions of the injustice of Saddam Hussein's Iraq were used in part to justify his overthrow). And conversely, the Soviets published many descriptions of the horrors of the Jim Crow US South for similar reasons.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @10:35AM (#17303445)
Soviets published many descriptions of the horrors of the Jim Crow US South for similar reasons.

Can you think of some that weren't, I dunno, 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' or Huck Finn? The notion that a survivor's memoir like Shalamov's is some kind of Western plot was absurd in its time and plainly disgusting now.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by jhbadger on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:18PM (#17304482)
I'm talking about contemporary descriptions of US racism during the Soviet period. Things like lynching of black men because they supposedly looked at a white woman and the murder of civil rights leaders like MLK jr. These obviously were terrible things, but why were they reported in Russian? To make Soviet citizens feel that their land was morally superior. And likewise with Gulag literature in the West. It's easier to complain that your neighbors' house is dirty than to clean your own.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:31PM (#17304605)
And likewise with Gulag literature in the West.

No no no no no no. How do you jump from one to the other? That's like saying Anne Frank's diary's credibility is tainted by the injustice of the internment of US citizens of Japanese ancestry.

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by anticodon on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @08:21PM (#17308203)
I didn't say that it's a western plot in my comment.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by pvg on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:12AM (#17300671)
This kind of literature was funded and promoted by the West because it supports the western society discourse.

I think the parent comment is reductive in a the-opposite-of-insightful way but no, that literature was not "funded and promoted by the West because it supports the western society discourse."

Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:01PM (#17304307)
No, not everybody had passed through camps. Pretty much everybody had a relative who did, though. That's not even counting entire nations summarily sent to balmy Gulag resorts. And even in the 80s (hell, even now) a lot of national culture and character were based on the prison society.
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by trhway on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @03:35AM (#17301065)
i wonder what other side is possible here?
Re:Things I Learned in the Gulag by Fins on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @01:50AM (#17300579)
It's quite understated, compared to reality. Also, the truth does tend to be quite one-sided; POV of cheating, lying murderers doesn't get included in it.