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Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:09AM (#17278440)
The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them. MacOS devs do and will go out of their way to make sure their software is not just usable, but a sheer pleasure to use in every way possible. Yes, there are exceptions (I'm looking at you, Apple, with your Xcode and your Finder) but for the most part that's just the way things are in the MacOS app ecosystem.

Open source, on the other hand, is like trying to shave with a razor blade with no handle. It's a hard sell to get people to donate to projects that they know are going to cut them at some point.

Re:On paying for software by sheetjs on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:58PM (#17278957)
> the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them.

An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers. Open source licenses explicitly indemnify the authors. Receiving something for free and expecting something more is the essence of the entitled behavior that frustrate and burn out many open source developers.

A donation is a voluntary gift. Like any other gift, a donation to an open source project is understood to have no strings tied to it. Giving a dollar a month to a project doesn't entitle you to round-the-clock support. If you expect something more, have a conversation with the developers to work out a plan.

P.S.: we (https://sheetjs.com/) build and maintain open source projects (our largest is https://github.com/sheetjs/js-xlsx) and we turn down donations precisely because many people expect something in return. Instead, we offer actual paid support plans and additional features.

Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:45PM (#17279203)
> An open source project creates no obligation on the part of the developers.

I meant a subconscious obligation, not a legal one. When somebody gives you a gift, it puts pressure on you (subconscious and social) to reciprocate. You see it all the time with youtube streamers, who frequently cater their content to their subscribers wishes to keep them happy. And to clarify, the streamers don't do this because their users are unhappy or protesting. They do it because they feel a sense of obligation to give their subscribers what they want because the subscribers were generous enough to give the streamer money.

For whatever reason, this phenomenon is completely lacking in the open source community. Instead, the opposite seems to occur. OSS developers are actively hostile toward their users, both vocally and how they react to criticism that their software isn't user friendly or respectful of their user's time. Anybody who has spent hours trying to set up a piece of OSS and then made the mistake of asking the developer for help can attest to this.

Re:On paying for software by boomboomsubban on Sunday June 10, 2018 @05:17PM (#17280185)
You're asking the developers to do unpaid tech support for you, while insulting their work. You seem hostile to them, it's no surprise they aren't nice to you.

Most moderate sized projects have at least decent documentations, some channel for support, and there are a range of third party options to consult. The developer generally should not be who you contact.

Re:On paying for software by reitanqild on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:43PM (#17281592)
> For whatever reason, this phenomenon is completely lacking in the open source community. Instead, the opposite seems to occur. OSS developers are actively hostile toward their users, both vocally and how they react to criticism that their software isn't user friendly or respectful of their user's time. Anybody who has spent hours trying to set up a piece of OSS and then made the mistake of asking the developer for help can attest to this.

Not my experience at all. Well sometimes bugs gets closed for no apparent reason etc but I've rarely been shouted at and I think more often than not they try to help.

Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:56AM (#17281921)
Your response is the customer relations equivalent to "it works on my machine." Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away.
Re:On paying for software by reitanqild on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:11AM (#17281979)
Well; if the difference between my machine and your machine persists in the long run it certainly might be interesting to find the differences that makes it work on my machine.

And - if this approach that you are showing here is representative for how you communicate it might explain a bit ;-)

Edit: and yes, my approach has worked for years so either it is something I do that you don't or I'm just consistently lucky or something :-)

Re:On paying for software by jkaplowitz on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:14PM (#17279031)
Typical paid proprietary licenses also explicitly indemnify the authors.
Re:On paying for software by patrickthebold on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:59AM (#17278697)
A 'donate' button isn't a business model. Some open source projects have a business model built around paid support.

By all means please donate to projects you want to support. But 'donation' implies you aren't getting something in return. Otherwise it would be a 'purchase'.

Re:On paying for software by kazinator on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:22PM (#17279428)
I have received numerous donations in the past. They were never accompanied by any specific request to fix something or make a feature. So even if I wanted to do something in the software out of a sense of obligation to those users, I would not have known what that is.

Realistically, a $100 donation doesn't get much of my time anyway.

It's more of a pat on the back; people like what you're doing, and the way you're doing it; so keep going. (Don't do anything differently, just more of it.)

Re:On paying for software by pxeboot on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:51PM (#17278929)
I actually find open source developers to be far more passionate about their projects than developers of commercial software. This makes sense to me, as they work on these projects because they want to, not because they have to.
Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:55PM (#17278943)
Passion isn't a barometer of anything but whether the developer likes his job. It certainly doesn't translate into better or more user friendly software.
Re:On paying for software by Rjevski on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:53PM (#17279598)
In OSS I tend to see the opposite. The more “passionate” developers tend to be passionate about some implementation detail (like respect for a particular standard, the Unix philosophy, Stallman-compliant licensing, etc) without giving a crap about the actual user experience in day to day usage.

I see more passion in paid software in macOS when I see a beautiful UI because it shows that the developer actually wants me to use and enjoy his creation day to day.

Re:On paying for software by watwut on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:31PM (#17279793)
It is more that well run project has testers and analyst and manager that will open tickets for what you are not passionate about and missed. So, you have to fix it whether passionate or not, it is more about result then whether you feel like doing it.

Then, there are also badly run commetial projects, which are crap despite being paid for.

Re:On paying for software by gaius on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:01PM (#17279645)
Passionate about making the installation process seamless on every distro? And all the other mundane, tedious tasks that are expected by users used to commercial software?

My OSS project, which I haven’t worked on in ages to be fair, I never made any effort to make it work anywhere but on Debian for example. I know some people used it in Suse and RHEL so it can’t have been too painful but I never had that as a goal.

Re:On paying for software by rocqua on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:27PM (#17279766)
This is the other issue with 'linux on the desktop'. The linux desktop is massively fragmented. Notably this goes for desktop environments and package managers.

This makes it hard to target 'linux' in general with polished software. The issue of package managers seems on its way to being solved by containers. However, the issue of desktop environments is much more thorny. As you can't really abstract away the metaphors with which a user communicates with his PC.

Re:On paying for software by justinclift on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:54PM (#17279872)
Depends on the individual I guess. :)

Years ago, I went through a phase getting the installer working well (cross platform) for a PostgreSQL replication project. FreeBSD, NetBSD, Solaris, RHEL, ... there might have been others too, it was a long time ago. ;)

Re:On paying for software by sireat on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:36PM (#17279810)
The problem with passion that it may not be focused to what the end users might most need.

Think about OSS software you've written and contributed to. 99% of time it is to scratch your own programmer centric itch.

Usability usually takes a backseat in OSS model as not many usability experts are working for free.

Same goes for documentation. It is autodoc or nothing.

Re:On paying for software by progval on Sunday June 10, 2018 @04:39PM (#17280036)
> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users or the people who donate to them.

I always go out of my way to help users who showed gratitude to me, either with a donation (those are very rare) or by being extra nice to me last time I helped them.

But obviously, users who insult my software and myself every time they have an issue come last on my list of priorities.

Re:On paying for software by bjpbakker on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:38PM (#17279166)
> The problem with open source is, for some reason, the developers feel no sense of obligation to the end users

This is as much true as it is for developers of proprietary software.

There are many examples on both sides that make your statement false, also as many to make it true.

Re:On paying for software by michaelmrose on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:25PM (#17279099)
"Open source, on the other hand, is like trying to shave with a razor blade with no handle. It's a hard sell to get people to donate to projects that they know are going to cut them at some point."

This sounds whiny and more importantly it isn't true its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop.

Don't make things more complicated than they are.

Re:On paying for software by electricEmu on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:55PM (#17279267)
I would say the blade analogy is fairly correct.

OSS isn't polished many times. The installer might be missing. Documentation is out of date or incomplete. The plug-in manager requires using the file system explorer directly.

All of that cuts. OSS can be death by a thousand cuts at times.

Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:49PM (#17279226)
> This sounds whiny

Are you an OSS developer by chance?

> its hard to get people to pay for things that they can have for free full stop.

The Apple third party app ecosystem proves you wrong. Users are willing to pay for good software, even if there are free alternatives available.

Re:On paying for software by michaelmrose on Sunday June 10, 2018 @07:53PM (#17280792)
You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making.

People are disinclined to fund open source projects that they can get for free.

If you rely on voluntary donations you will find yourself poor.

They may be willing to pay for value added only if getting something for nothing isn't an option.

Re:On paying for software by ropeadopepope on Sunday June 10, 2018 @08:26PM (#17280899)
> You failed to prove me wrong or in fact to understand the point I was making.

Then communicate your point better. Losing the hostility would be a great start.

Re:On paying for software by jrs95 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:11PM (#17278754)
Speaking of exceptions to this...they really need to fix their damn multi monitor support. It’s one of the few things Windows is far better at. I get that a small number of Mac users are even affected by this, but man would I appreciate that a lot more than Dark Mode. And I love Dark Mode.
Re:On paying for software by xur17 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:27PM (#17278823)
What issues have you experienced with their multimonitor support?
Re:On paying for software by jrs95 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:23PM (#17279435)
It takes a long time to wake from sleep, sometimes over 30 seconds with monitors flickering on and off. Which monitor displays which desktop will change after unplugging and plugging back in, or even after sleeping and waking back up.
Re:On paying for software by rocqua on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:30PM (#17279788)
I've had issues on this with windows when using DisplayPort Daisy chaining. Now I've switched to using separate cables.

The point being that anecdotally, windows doesn't have it down either.

Re:On paying for software by jrs95 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @08:50PM (#17280975)
I believe part of my issue might be that I'm using 1 HDMI port and another mDP to HDMI converter. From what I've read it seems like people tend to have these problems when using converters. So I guess if I were running directly off of mDP I'd probably be having a better time.
Re:On paying for software by sudouser on Sunday June 10, 2018 @03:28PM (#17279776)
turn spaces on