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Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by dchichkov on Saturday June 09, 2018 @05:45PM (#17275190)
It might be even worse than that. They likely think that they are on the path, because they are running a massive data-collection campaign on the sensor suite installed on the fleet. But the reality might be different. Running a data collection campaign is easy. Engineering products with machine learning is hard. Most of the teams don't even know what they need to know, to do it right. And so they engage into classical cargo cult of "carving wooden headphones". Regretfully, this is unlikely to change soon. It takes a decade to hone skills of building products with any technology. And the majority of people in the field are yet to join it.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by smogcutter on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:08PM (#17275298)
I mean, I'm also pessimistic about self driving cars, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Tesla engineers are aware that machine learning is hard.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by stephengillie on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:40AM (#17276922)
Yandex Taxi has Youtube videos of their self-driving car. This video of a car navigating a snowy Moscow street is especially impressive [0]. They don't seem to come up in self-driving car discussions on HN.

[0] https://youtu.be/Bx08yRsR9ow

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by amelius on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:19AM (#17277976)
A system which uses a LiDAR can be conceptually a lot simpler than one without. It tells you where all the obstacles are (stationary or not), so it naturally circumvents the main problem of Autopilot.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by dchichkov on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:22PM (#17275349)
I'm actually moderately optimistic about self driving cars. I think, we will see large fleets operating with no drivers in good conditions (and low speeds :) in a relatively short time frame. There are companies in which people had been honing skills of building products with machine learning for decades.

BTW, a bit of a plug. I'm running a nonprofit/public dataset project aimed at increasing safety of autonomous vehicles. If anyone here wants to contribute (with suggestions / pull requests / following it on twitter / etc) - you'd be most welcome. Its: https://www.safe-av.org/ . I'm just starting it/trying it out - simple feedback or following the twitter handle would already be helpful.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by jacobush on Saturday June 09, 2018 @07:25PM (#17275559)
Depends on how many are fired by angry managers. If you are unlucky, only the wood carving ones are left.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Animats on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:11AM (#17276847)
Tesla's "autopilot" project has had at least 3 of the project leaders quit.[1]

[1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/tesla-autopilot-crisis-...

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by jacobush on Sunday June 10, 2018 @05:49AM (#17277370)
I could also imagine being a reluctant woodcarver ... "Yes master. If we keep carving this piece of wooden golem, it will come alive!"
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by baybal2 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:45AM (#17276762)
That's strange. As one of most popular "crash management" systems on the market, one installed on Volvos is quite good at this, to the extend they put it's test video into their commercials.

A sponsored article?

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by mcguire on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:01PM (#17278705)
https://support.volvocars.com/hk/cars/Pages/owners-manual.as...

"WARNING

"When the adaptive cruise control is following another vehicle at speeds in excess ofca 30 km/h (20 mph) and the target is changed from a moving vehicle to a stationary vehicle, the adaptive cruise control will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead select the stored speed.

"The driver must then intervene him/herself and brake."

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by rspeer on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:15PM (#17278778)
Wow, that is some really unclear and weaselly wording. Do I understand correctly that it means "This system might decide to 'follow' a stopped car and crash into it, and then we'll say it's your fault"?
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by mcguire on Sunday June 10, 2018 @02:22PM (#17279425)
Yes.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by RaceWon on Sunday June 10, 2018 @04:14PM (#17279950)
As an open wheel formula car racer, I have to say that my best guess is most people who would purchase a "self-driving" car do not like to drive (if I could disable the anti-lock on my cars I would, and I ALWAYS drive with the skid control turned off. Although I have track tested some of the VW models circa 2010 on short autocross tracks with the stability program on and did not find it a hindrance to driving the cars sideways through the corners. I did not time test it to see which way was quicker, but again I felt in control and not that the car was fighting me; having said that I still drove my GTI with the stability program switched off even in the snow and especially in the rain) and I believe this is a major factor in these crashes.

One of the most difficult things to do in a race, is to go fast/drive at your best the moment the flag goes green; and here it appears to me that we have people who don't like to drive, so therefore they likely aren't very good at it, and suddenly they are faced with a life and death crisis in which they NOW have to save their life by starting to drive the car when they are not even warmed up and they have very little room for error... I mean do the math.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Domenic_S on Sunday June 10, 2018 @05:43PM (#17280315)
Liking something doesn’t mean you have to partake 100% every time the opportunity arises. I like chocolate cake but I don’t order it every time I sit down to eat. What’s more, a lot of us are very skilled at things we don’t particularly like.

Ultimately what you’re keying into is skill and interest - most people aren’t very skilled at driving and they don’t really care to be.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by astura on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:36PM (#17281137)
Um... Just because someone doesn't care to do something doesn't mean they are bad at it. In fact, it's been my experience that the people who enjoy driving the most are the most reckless ones.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by lovemenot on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:41PM (#17275800)
>> Running a data collection campaign is easy.

Not sure why you think so. If this is correct, there should be many other equivalent or better campaigns currently running at the same scale, right?

On the contrary, I imagine that data is a very significant limiting factor in this field.

Both data and computation are hard problems. AFAIK Tesla should still be leading in the former category by virtue of the number of its data collection devices. Crucially, they are collecting training data (real world human input) with which they will be able to train and test models.

Note, I am not saying that Tesla's current models are good, or that they will easily improve them. Only that you are too dismissive of the potential advantage that Tesla's data affords them.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by dogma1138 on Sunday June 10, 2018 @07:49AM (#17277670)
MobilEye uses all of their ADAS cameras and enables OEM participation in their crowdsourced mapping project https://www.mobileye.com/our-technology/rem/

I’m pretty sure those outnumber Tesla.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by dchichkov on Saturday June 09, 2018 @09:29PM (#17275941)
Do you know, if the data collection campaign that they are running is not a cargo cult? I don't. I hope it is a good and well designed campaign, because it utilizes useful society resources.

edit yes, personally I'm very impressed by the size of the campaign. It is just that again, there is a spectrum of difficulty between running a campaign even of this size and running it right, in a way that is actually useful to building a product. And still, in my opinion, building an autonomous vehicle is much harder in comparison, to running a campaign of that size in a right way.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by focal-point on Sunday June 10, 2018 @08:44AM (#17277847)
why don't they'd partner with Waymo? They can build the cars and collect the data, while Waymo can provide the ML expertise. I'm sure Tesla+Waymo would be a hit among a certain type of crowd.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Filligree on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:33AM (#17278031)
Waymo seems to be doing just fine on their own. I'm not sure they feel they need any partnership.

They just ordered some 30,000-ish cars, so it would seem they're entering the mass-production phase.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by plankers on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:48AM (#17278352)
There's active disdain (or at least snide jokes) among the senior Waymo engineers for the approach to autonomous driving taken by Tesla. I can't see a partnership in the cards, probably ever.

Source: used to work there

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by louprado on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:28PM (#17278825)
How would the engineers at Waymo know Tesla's trade-secret approach beyond the physical hardware ? Tesla is the only major player in the race to autonomous cars that has no patent. Waymo has 145.[1]

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/08/a-tesla-self-driving-blind-s...

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by grogenaut on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:23PM (#17279077)
I'm betting a bunch of them own Tesla's (status symbols). You can tell a lot about a system just by using it and testing it.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by plankers on Monday June 11, 2018 @10:26PM (#17290253)
Some of them used to work at Tesla. They also take issue with the use of lossy sonar and the failure to incorporate lidar.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Filligree on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:10AM (#17281696)
I can understand why there might be.

Source: Watched a presentation on the computational aspects recently.

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by zwkrt on Saturday June 09, 2018 @11:48PM (#17276373)
Can you elaborate on the phrase "carving wooden headphones"? I haven't heard of that term before.
Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by Declanomous on Saturday June 09, 2018 @11:54PM (#17276397)
The island natives in the pacific got a lot of fantastic things from the servicemen who visited their islands during WWII. In an effort to bring them back, they emulated everything they saw the servicemen doing. In effect, they were just going through the motions without purpose.

They built runways and carved wooden headphones like they saw the aviators wearing.

Here's a summary from Wikipedia:

With the end of the war, the military abandoned the airbases and stopped dropping cargo. In response, charismatic individuals developed cults among remote Melanesian populations that promised to bestow on their followers deliveries of food, arms, Jeeps, etc. The cult leaders explained that the cargo would be gifts from their own ancestors, or other sources, as had occurred with the outsider armies. In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day-to-day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles.[14] The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Re:Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars a... by baxtr on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:28AM (#17276719)
Fascinating. Search for “cargo cult” on google images for visual impressions