> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent"

I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1]

Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Assuming that the caffeine makes it into the bloodstream at the same rate?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

Caffeine == Caffeine

But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee.

1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body)

2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substance affects the rate / efficiency of absorption by the body (I cannot predict for which way it will go, this stuff is complex) so the net absorbed caffeine will be different between the two substances

3. Delivery mechanisms are different: Coke is very sugary, black coffee is not and is a colloidal suspension. The local chemical environment for the caffeine within these two substances will be different. Sugar is known to affect osmosis, meanwhile who knows wtf the gunk in coffee is doing at the chemical level.

So to sum up "caffeine = caffeine = caffeine" is probably a useful rule of thumb and will get pretty far, but at the physiological/biochemical level, that is as useful as armchair pseudoscience is.

To use a possibly relatable issue: most people find consuming shots of vodka more efficacious than consuming the equivalent amount of beer by alcohol. 3 shots will probably get you more wasted than necking 3 beers

> But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee.

I know it was just an example, but after looking into this earlier this year, coke and pepsi have a much higher caffeine content at 10mg/100ml and 13mg/100ml (for coke and pepsi respectively)

> To use a possibly relatable issue: most people find consuming shots of vodka more efficacious than consuming the equivalent amount of beer by alcohol. 3 shots will probably get you more wasted than necking 3 beers

But it won't, after drinking 3 beers after each other your BAC will go to the same level, just takes a little more time to get there.

Subjectively, you start feeling drunk much more quickly because the change is faster with Vodka, but your capabilities are as much impaired.

This is not true and is the nature of the discussion. Alcohol and caffeine are processed differently depending on what they are consumed with, like how the digestive cofactors in apples make it have a lower glycemic index than it's fructose content should produce. To stay with alcohol, this is easily testable. Drink five shots of vodka and see how drunk it gets you. Separately, drink five shots of vodka with honey added and you will get significantly drunker. Your liver prioritizes sugars first, so the alcohol is rapidly absorbed and takes effect instead of being processed out. You do not reach the same BAC in each case, just like drinking 5 shots in five days won't either.

I think he's saying that the beers take that much longer, and you're metabolizing the alcohol along the way.

Thanks for that explanation. That matches my experience very well. I regularly feel wired and a little anxious after coffee but almost never after Coke (keeping the caffeine consumed constant).

Though my intuition tells me that chugging three beers would get me more drunk than drinking three shots. Sigh. The things I do for science.

> chugging three beers would get me more drunk than drinking three shots

The obvious question is what you're drinking - with the rise of craft beer scene, 3 beers could easily be substantially more alcohol than 3 shots. But assuming you match alcohol volume and consumption speed, absorption rates can still vary substantially.

From what I can find, it looks like beer actually would get you (and everyone) more drunk: diluting alcohol substantially speeds up absorption, and carbonating dilute alcohol probably does also.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17720590

Yerba mate contains other stimulants as well, like red bull does. So yes caffeine = caffeine, but caffeineted drink!= caffeineted drink.

Yep, good point. Club Mate contains sugar as well.

The espresso I drink never contains sugar or milk.

The coca cola zero I drink doesn't contain sugar either.

I cannot stand the highs and lows of sugar. I notice it especially at birthday parties. I mean, its already boring... and them comes up of the sugar rush followed by a low where I start yawning and feeling sleepy. I so not wanna be there anymore at that point.

The general trick though, is dosages. You want to keep it stable when it matters, and at the end of the day wind down. Which means you do not want to drink caffeine drinks anymore in the evening.

For the rest, I can highly recommend mindfulness to help increase focus (but before I started it, I found it super annoying when someone suggested it and then I tried it myself and it didn't work out; so I am following a course on it, for people with autism). Meds can help out as well.

Red Bull does not contain any other stimulants.

OK... citation?

Their site says it contains 27g sugar/8.4 fl oz. Pretty sure sugar is a stimulant.

http://energydrink-us.redbull.com/en/ingredients-red-bull

Sugar is not a stimulant. It is a carbohydrate.

I was thinking of taurine, but apparently it's not actually a stimulant and the research is mixed as to whether the other ingredients in red bull have any additional effect to the caffeine.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yerba mate (and maybe even coffee) had some alkaloids that modulate the effect of caffeine on the body. I recently discovered that coffee contains (small amounts of) Harman and norharman, which are MAOIs and would definitely affect the effect caffeine has. (these MAOIs are also in tobacco! They enhance the addictive potential of nicotine)

Not a chemist or even a frequent caffeine user either, but from my experience you can't reduce the effect of something you take to its active principle.

For me, the same whisky has very noticeable differences in the effect and after-effect depending on how it's served / mixed.

I always assumed the line about water "opening up" whiskey was just about flavor and personal preference, but I just did a bit of looking around and apparently it might also get you drunker faster. Diluting vodka 1:1 with water apparently speeds up absorption quite a bit, so there's something physical happening, at leas tin the stomach.

> Assuming that the caffeine makes it into the bloodstream at the same rate?

That's a big if. Others have listed a few factors to consider, another example is Guaraná powder which contains a lot of fiber, thereby slowing the caffeine intake.

Yeah, but combination of ingridents might affect it. "Monster Energy" does nothing for me. I can drink it and go to sleep. Mountain Dew will keep me more alert than it, Coffee keeps me more alert than Mountain Dew, and "Gridlock" energy drink from Aldi (knockoff of Monster Energy) is almost as good as Coffee. Different people react differently. If I need to stay up at night, only Coffee or Gridlock will do the trick.

I had the same experience with the Aldi "Gridlock" energy drinks and I noticed that cans of Gridlock are labeled as containing two servings per can whereas Monster is one serving per can. Therefore I think Gridlock has approx 2x the caffiene content since both claim about 200mg / serving if I remember correctly.

It's the other chemicals in the drinks that change the feeling. Tea contains a calming chemical and red bull contains b vitamins. Either of those with caffeine causes a different type of alertness/buzz.

Apart from caffeine, yerba mate also contains the stimulants theobromine and theophylline, which makes the effects qualitatively different from only ingesting caffeine. I found yerba mate works very well as a pre-workout drink.

I think yerba mate makes me more stimulated but less "wired" than coffee. I have mainly been making tea with the actual mate leafs and not so much the sugary club mate.

yes. they metabolize differently and at different rates.

theobromine takes longer for your body to remove than caffeine. (also the main stimulant in chocolate, and the one that is bad for dogs, because they can't metabolize it).

mate has more theobromine than coffee, so it's effects should last longer. just measuring caffeine is not a good way to find out the total stimulant effect.

(see wikipedia)

"restrict myself to mornings only"

Do yourself a favour and take the next step. Stop ingesting daily and reserve coffee for sleep emergencies and medicinal purposes. Even a single daily cup of coffee is enough to build a tolerance to it.

Besides affecting alertness, caffeine is also a very effective way of increasing the potency of many drugs. For me, Advil by itself has little effect, but in combination with caffeine it works great.

I believe that is a factor of caffeine increasing blood flow, leading to quicker delivery within the body

My guess would've been CYP3A4, but you could be right.

I found a study of caffeine producing grapefruit-like inhibitory effects on some people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5625156/

> but in combination with caffeine it works great

I recently heard about goody's when we ran a marketing campaign for them.

https://www.amazon.com/Goodys-Extra-Strength-Headache-Powder...

The nascar themed marketing was probably why i hadn't heard of it but I did end up trying it and the mixture of the two works great

That's pretty much what I do. One or two cups in the morning and I tend to skip that on weekends.

A lot of medicines have a version with caffeine to make it more efficient and prevent sleepiness.

Shout-out to Yerba Mate tea (which this drink is based on) which I got introduced to on a recent trip to Argentina and now enjoy at home now and then, thanks to Amazon (I got the special cup and special metal filter straw and everything!). It's been called a "supertea" due to its various health benefits in addition to being a CNS stimulant. I'd recommend trying it. I add a little honey, but sweetener is up to you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerba_mate

For reference I got this mate mug https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GJXBR94/ref=oh_aui_se... and these straws ("bombillas") https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M1N9U23/ref=oh_aui_se... (because the one that came with the mug let a bit too much tea particulate through) and am very happy with that combo.

Here's a good video on the "ritual" of making it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BW1-pE4XaE

What I find interesting is that people who like those mate drinks are quite brand loyal (at least in my experience).

I've tried at least 10 different brands since I had my first Club Mate 15 years ago, and I hated every single one of them. A few friends hate Club Mate and only like a single other brand.

I limit my intake because of the sugar content; but you are right. There are several club mate alternatives including bio mate, fritz mate and probably a few others that are widely available in Berlin and look and taste similar. I'm not very fussy about which I pick but I tend to prefer club mate. Like many soft drinks, a lot of the popularity is marketing driven of course. It's like pepsi vs coca cola. Always a bit disappointing when you order a coke and end up with a pepsi. For some people it's the other way around of course.

Just another data point, but for me it's the opposite. I drink mate every morning becasue its effect is softer than that of coffee.

I only drink coffee when I need extra alertness.

Meditation can also increase your hability to be alert without resorting to drinks.

> Just another data point, but for me it's the opposite. I drink mate every morning becasue its effect is softer than that of coffee.

OP is on about Club Mate. A soda drink with mate.

Its not very good for the teeth, like other soda drinks (the acid, Co2, and sugar). Furthermore, tea is bad for keeping your teeth white. But other than the latter, normal yerba mate doesn't suffer from the other downsides soda has. Normal yerba mate doesn't contain acid, Co2, and sugar.

I used to drink 1.5 litre of Club Mate per day. I was pretty hyped up, but it caused my heart to flutter in my chest every now and then.

For the Club mate fans, a decent drink I threw together one day:

   4 parts club-mate
   2 parts lemonade
   1-2 parts white rum
   Glass filled with ice

Refreshing.

This is dead end and really should be illegal to force employees to do that. I hate when companies are trying to squeeze every inch of you, just to get their sorry startup some funding to burn. If you have so much work given to do that you need to "medicate" yourself with stimulants, then you are getting shafted. I find it bizarre that such exploitation culture is allowed. Always thought that Germany has fair employment laws.

It is illegal to force a drug on your employees. IANAL, but that would go badly. That doesn't mean they can't have it available on tap, which is how they tend to do it. Lots of companies make free coffee available to their employees.

Startup founders on the other hand always have more work than time, and they need to be careful not to burn themselves out by overdoing it on the stimulants and the work.

The worst I have experienced is when there was also "unlimited" beer on tap. Founders often - practically every evening - were getting drunk in the office with other employees "brainstorming". It was a cycle - hangover in the morning, boosted awareness with coffee and red bulls every hour or so and in the evening "curing" hangover with beer. That was sick (in a negative sense).

When you get headaches, chances are you are dehydrated. I would suggest to drink a lot of water before and after drinking coffee or when you feel pain in your head. Drinking a lot of water works for me many times while enjoying too much caffeine in my body.

Is that meant to be Yerba mate auto corrected?

No, Club-Mate is a reasonably well known brand of yerba mate drink in Germany.

Ok, so it is the yerba mate was correct, but the auto correct not.

Edit, OK I see it is actually yerba mate based soft drink.

No[0]

[0]http://club-mateusa.com/

I drink club mate in late evenings every now and then and I can't notice a strong effect.