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Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by piker on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:16AM (#17246359)
PSA: "Real pay" means nominal pay adjusted for inflation. So if pay went up by 3%, and inflation was 2%, you'd get something like a 1% "real" pay increase. Please reserve comment about the "cost of living" or inflation, as those are (technically) accounted for in this number.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:41AM (#17246557)
I am not an economist, so anyone more familiar with this please educate me on this matter, but surely a single number like inflation can't capture difficult issues like rent going up very quickly, or any other issue that basically affects specific subsections of society disproportionately? (and I'm not even mentioning the issue of housing shortage)

EDIT: I probably should have used "express" rather than "capture", apologies.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:50AM (#17246638)
Well of course such a number can. You just calculate average price increases, weighed by their share of spending (a 1% increase in healthcare has more implications than a 1% increase in telephone bills) to the best of your ability.

The question is, how good is the approximation and how meaningful is an average statistic?

The statistic is useful and meaningful, but doesn't say everything. Fortunately we have hundreds of inflation metrics, for different groups (urban, rural), age groups, countries, states, regions and sectors.

Virtually none of these are published in media outside the general CPI measure, but all can be found on government/centralbank/consultants etc websites, typically with methodological sections explaining how they came to their conclusions.

For example: https://www.bls.gov/cpi/home.htm

Here you can find various inflation figures, methodology and data.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:02AM (#17247195)
Not to get sidetracked into a semantic argument, but as a non-native speaker of English: isn't that exactly what "capture" in "capture difficult issues" is supposed to mean?
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:56AM (#17247639)
You're right, I think I was misreading you.

Indeed (as you edited), the national inflation figure can 'capture' it in the statistic sense, but cannot capture it in the sense that the number expresses individual paint points that different subsections of the population experiences, like rent in a HCOL urban area, or the inability for wages to catch up with an ever increasing downpayment requirement.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:08PM (#17248273)
Thank you for clarifying!
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by apexalpha on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:49AM (#17246630)
Rising rent will absolutely be in the inflation number. Sure, it might not be correct if you live in a big city where rents have risen way beyond inflation numbers, but it's good on average.

Every European capital / big city has seen absolutely massive increases in rent and house prises since the ECB started printing money. (Housing sector if very 'close' to the banking sector and so more directly affected by the availability of cheap credit). Not causes by the ECB 100%, but accelerated by it nonetheless.

But if the cost of all other goods has stayed the same, plus the rent and house prises in rural areas has been normal or even dropped, inflation on average will be ok.

(And then the ECB says: inflation is less than 2% _on average_ so no problem here. print. print.. print...)

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by pg314 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:24AM (#17246919)
> Every European capital / big city has seen absolutely massive increases in rent and house prises since the ECB started printing money.

For Brussels at least, that is simply not true. See the graph in section 'Brussels Hoofdstedelijk Gewest' of [1] for the evolution of real estate prices in the Brussels region since 2008. There are also strict rent controls in Belgium: if you are renting your landlord can increase the rent with inflation, but not more. Every three years the landlord can theoretically increase the price, if he has made improvements to the property or he can prove that the rental value has objectively increased by more than 20% (which is hard, if there are disputes courts tend to side with tenants).

[1] https://statbel.fgov.be/nl/themas/bouwen-wonen/vastgoedprijz...

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by mistermann on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:02AM (#17247197)
> Rising rent will absolutely be in the inflation number. Sure, it might not be correct if you live in a big city where rents have risen way beyond inflation numbers, but it's good on average.

This assumes the numbers accurately represent reality. Here in Canada, the shelter component of our CPI numbers do not reflect at all the massive price inflation that has been occurring in both buying and renting shelter.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=181000...

If one was to take their numbers at face value, you would conclude that shelter price inflation is generally consistent with all other goods, and that it has been consistent across all regions, neither of which is true.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:13PM (#17248333)
I'm sorry but this statement is full of FUD.

Printing money is what central banks do. It's what every Eurozone nation used to do with their own money as well before switching to the Euro. So unless you can explain what the ECB does differently that makes this worse than the central banks before it, you don't really have much of an argument.

Is it printing money faster than the central banks before it did? If so, give some numbers and sources please.

And in general, be explicit about your claims, because as written you're practically suggesting that the Eurozone is acting like the Weimar Republic.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by tomp on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @05:49PM (#17251392)
ECB, FED and the Swiss National Bank have been "printing" money but not the same as before. They're only using it to buy securities, first bonds, and now even stocks/index ETFs.

Search "FED balance sheet vs S&P" or something similar. E.g. http://whattheythink.com/data/84893-feds-balance-sheet/

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by JulianMorrison on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:51AM (#17246643)
This seems clearly true for highly regional things like rent but probably not true for non-regional things like the price of a camera on Amazon. Those are likely to be well-described by inflation numbers.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:19PM (#17248393)
You're saying that a single statistic, like a "mean" or "average" is only one representation of a distribution. Many other aspects of the distribution are important, such as the variance or the mean conditional on some other factor.

Inflation is a vague concept. When people try to measure inflation, they're using filters and aggregates. Criticism that those filters and aggregations are distorting the view (for political purposes) is valid and a frequent motivation to publish academic papers.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by pg_bot on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:56AM (#17246681)
Inflation is typically calculated via two indexes in the United States. The consumer price index (CPI) and the producer price index (PPI). The consumer price index does its best to calculate difficult issues such as improvements in technology, changes in shelter and prices for other goods and services urban consumers use across the country. Each report is calculated monthly I will link to the most recent versions of each report below:

tl;dr Of course it can.

[0]: CPI https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/pdf/homch17.pdf

[1]: PPI https://www.bls.gov/ppi/ppidr201804.pdf

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:23PM (#17248434)
I think he meant that the mean is not the message. If you're an outlier, you don't care what the mean consumer price inflation is.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:09PM (#17250090)
Correct, but I think it is very understandable that I was misinterpretated. Luckily, the replies to the misinterpretation are still very informative in a different way! :)
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:53AM (#17246659)
From an economics standpoint, inflation is an increase in the money supply.

What we see in our everyday lives is sometimes called "price inflation", i.e. prices rising, and that can happen disproportionally.

As a US-centric example, computer prices have been gradually decreasing, while healthcare and housing costs have skyrocketed.

So an increase in the supply of money is separate from an increase in "a concentration" of money in a "market area" like healthcare, and productivity and material costs and whatever else factors into prices at any given time.

Of course, an increase in the supply of money factors into prices where ever the money goes.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by nabla9 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:29AM (#17246971)
> From an economics standpoint, inflation is an increase in the money supply.

This is not true unless you live in early 1900's or only surf some crackpot websites.

In the language of economics inflation without specifics means price inflation. If you mean monetary inflation, you must use two words.

Increasing money supply is not going to prices if

1) economy grows and demand for money matches the supply or

2) velocity of money decreases. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V As a thought experiment: If you mint a trillion dollar coin but are not using it, monetary supply increases radically but it has no effect on price inflation because it has zero velocity.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by _dps on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:57AM (#17247647)
I imagine you're referring to Austrian economics here, but much more mainstream economists believe inflation to be fundamentally about money supply as well. Here's (nobel prize winner) Milton Friedman, from Wikiquote:

"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output. … A steady rate of monetary growth at a moderate level can provide a framework under which a country can have little inflation and much growth. It will not produce perfect stability; it will not produce heaven on earth; but it can make an important contribution to a stable economic society."

That's not so say that many don't hold the belief you have (i.e. that inflation should be understood primarily as price inflation, and monetary inflation is a secondary consideration). But it's not the only mainstream opinion.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by nabla9 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:32AM (#17247946)
When quoting Milton Friedman we are discussing in past tense. Monetary theory has moved on. Friedman’s ideas were revolutionary and they corrected many mistakes of that time, but only some parts of Friedman's monetary theory have survived. He was one of the greatest minds in economics but things are not true just because Friedman said so.

Friedman simple quantity-of-money rule policy didn't withstood the test of time.

His idea that flexible exchange rates make inflation purely domestic issue is the cornerstone of economics. No good economist today believes that unemployment and deflation should be preferred for currency devaluation thanks to Friedman.

Friedman spend his life trying to prove that there had never been in history a monetary supply growth without being followed by inflation. What he didn't try to prove was that monetary supply growth always is followed by inflation.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by _dps on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @01:59PM (#17249428)
You may be right and I might be out of touch with what is mainstream these days. But to be clear, I wasn't claiming Friedman's ideas were the only ones in Monetarism. Obviously a lot has happened since the 70s (or even 10 years ago when I was more in touch with people in economics).

But I think 10 years ago there were definitely mainstream people who at least claimed to believe the "inflation is always a monetary phenomenon". Still, it sounds like you are more up to date on this than I am so I appreciate the clarification.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by nabla9 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @02:42PM (#17249856)
> 10 years ago there were definitely mainstream people who at least claimed to believe

This is correct even today. Among politicians and pundits there is completely different economic discussion and it's really confusing.

You know, if you would give top 1000 dry academics in any field a way to flag news media or opinion pieces in their specialty with visible [extraordinary or surprising claim] -flag if they do it with 4/5 majority it would be really helpful public service (startup someone?)

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:16AM (#17247809)
> I imagine you're referring to Austrian economics here

Probably. It's strange how the only school of economic thought that actually corresponds to reality is the one shunned as "pseudoscience" or something.

Go see for yourselves: http://mises.org

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by nabla9 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:45AM (#17248065)
Quoting Milton Friedman:

>I think the Austrian business-cycle theory has done the world a great deal of harm. If you go back to the 1930s, which is a key point, here you had the Austrians sitting in London, Hayek and Lionel Robbins, and saying you just have to let the bottom drop out of the world. You’ve just got to let it cure itself. You can’t do anything about it. You will only make it worse. You have Rothbard saying it was a great mistake not to let the whole banking system collapse. I think by encouraging that kind of do-nothing policy both in Britain and in the United States, they did harm.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:16PM (#17248354)
And Milton was right about that just because he's Milton?

Can you come up with an argument against Austrian Economics in your own words, or are you content trying to discredit it with an appeal to Milton's authority?

I could argue against the quoted passage but I don't want to bother doing any more work than you have.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:29PM (#17248513)
You linked to some junk website as an appeal to authority.

I'll throw you a bone: Deflationary policy is idiocy. Belief that monetary policy can be neither inflationary nor deflationary is anti-empirical and wishful thinking.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:43PM (#17252594)
"Some junk website"?

And yet, somehow I still think you're not even trolling!

But if not.. Once again, I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with you people.

By the way, that wasn't an appeal to authority. It was a link to a website where you can educate yourself, without having to take my word for anything.

As for monetary policy, it shouldn't even be a thing.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Thursday June 07, 2018 @12:25AM (#17253282)
Ironically, I also suspect trolling whenever someone gets all whacko with Austrian School.

Don't worry, I've spent plenty of time educating myself. Grad school was pretty good for that. It even says Economics on my diploma, heyyy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "monetary policy shouldn't even be a thing." That's like saying, "guns shouldn't even be a thing."

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @04:26AM (#17254214)
It really doesn't take much at all to see that the Austrian School is right and others are wrong.

For starters, if you understand that value is subjective, you'll also understand that there's no way to put a number on how much you want something, or precisely how much you'd be willing to pay for it, etc.

You'll also understand that you can't base calculations on something you can't actually quantify, and have no way of accurately measuring..

So yeah, you'll understand that most of what you've been taught is just garbage-in-garbage-out.

As for monetary policy, it's essentially just "a plan for forcefully intervening in an economy", and it doesn't actually happen for the greater good - it's done to benefit the government and their buddies.

As a prime example, who gets access to newly printed thin-air-money at zero interest? Do you want him to buy real assets with "free money", and have you suffer the consequences (of the resulting decrease in your currency's purchasing power)?

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Thursday June 07, 2018 @03:27PM (#17259339)
> no way to put a number on how much you want something

Counter-example: I do it all the time. Ever heard of "revealed preference"? Sure there are weird human things like preferring A to B, B to C, and C to A, but I'm OK with a map not being the territory.

> a plan for forcefully intervening in an economy

All government choices are forceful interventions, whether a choice to act or not act.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Friday June 08, 2018 @08:38AM (#17264687)
>> no way to put a number on how much you want something

> Counter-example: I do it all the time.

No you don't. I mean, sure you can pull numbers out of your ass and pretend to calculate something based on them.

Or you can even explicitly set out to calculate garbage results with garbage inputs, if you insist.

But you're not putting accurate numbers on how much anyone wants anything, because it's all subjective.

> All government choices are forceful interventions, whether a choice to act or not act.

Indeed. That's how ruling over subjects works. I can't parse the latter part though, but whatever.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:18AM (#17266265)
I can estimate the amount of money I'm willing to pay for something. I can observe some evidence of what other people are willing to pay and from that proxy make an estimate.

If that's pulling something out of my ass, well, I guess you're not a fan of statistics or the scientific method? Oh, actually, I forgot that's a central tenet of the Austrian School -- science is bogus when contradicted by philosophy.

> can't parse the latter part

If a government creates money, then it must have a monetary policy. Do you think government-backed money is not "for the greater good"?

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by alter_eco123 on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:10PM (#17266833)
Do you think ruling over subjects is done to benefit the subjects?

Do you think 2% is a good rate for you to be losing your savings' purchasing power? How fast would you like gangrene to spread through your body?

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Friday June 08, 2018 @02:28PM (#17268374)
I'm not a fan of anarchy. Which is what you're advocating now.

> 2%

The correct rate varies according to the behavior of the economy.

> gangrene

What a strange and shifting conversation.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:26PM (#17248471)
Amusingly, they're the school of economic thought that most vehemently ignores reality if it disagrees with their theory.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by erikb on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:08AM (#17246780)
I don't think cost of living is accounted in relation. For instance most wealthy people live in houses. Costs for that have risen, but "value" has risen too. At the same time rents have risen as well, additionally to the utility costs etc. So for the rich this point might be net zero or small loss, while for the poor it's a double loss.

The same applies to food. If you can afford eating in a restuarant for $20+ twice a day, you probably haven't seen any significant prise rises. But if you have trouble not spending more than $100 to feed four mouths a week, you probably a big decline in quality of your food since 2000. E.g. this requirement is hard to come by when you try to include fresh fruits.

Thus I'd say it's still an important point to consider.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:12PM (#17248316)
Are you saying that inflation is unevenly distributed across the "quality" spectrum of products? Yes, this has been studied. Perhaps it deserves more research, but the results I remember demonstrated that price inflation rates are higher among more expensive products. One might hypothesize that greater wage inflation and other income gains among wealthier people is causing the corresponding higher inflation for the products they buy.

When home-values inflate, it's a wealth transfer from first-time buyers to retirees that are downsizing, selling a large home for a smaller one, putting the profits into stocks and bonds. To your point, that's not a net loss, just a wealth transfer. Note, it's not a net gain either. Building homes is a gain (usually), inflating asset prices are not.

As for the rising rent, that's part of inflation ... Anyway, you seem distressed that things are "really tough to represent in the statistics" but I assure you many of your concerns have been considered.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:20PM (#17250192)
> Are you saying that inflation is unevenly distributed across the "quality" spectrum of products? Yes, this has been studied. Perhaps it deserves more research, but the results I remember demonstrated that price inflation rates are higher among more expensive products.

Doesn't technological progress complicate this question even further?

When I think of more expensive products, I think of computers, smartphones, etc. Yes, the new flagship products stay expensive, but that also represents new possibilities that weren't possible a decade ago (let alone a few decades ago).

But nowadays you can get a functioning computer that lets you browse the Internet, watch videos and do your emails for the price of a Raspberry Pi (and the investment of a separate keyboard, mouse, charger, SD card and TV - but those can be gotten for cheap as well).

Similarly, a lot of things that used to be expensive are now cheap.

So basically: technological progress is shifting the "quality" spectrum itself, in some cases very quickly, in some cases barely.

(I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious how economists deal with questions like this)

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @05:35PM (#17251308)
Computing is the extreme example of this phenomenon. Economists don't in general have a great way to handle this issue, because it varies so greatly across industries. A loaf of bread is just about the same as it's always been. Oh wait, maybe wonderbread is worse and artisinal ciabatta is better?

Sometimes economists like to create some aggregate measure of increasing consumer choice by counting the number of SKUs available in a store. Big box stores pushing out Mom & Pop made that awkward. Now Amazon makes it tougher still.

Back in grad school, I was not aware of any consensus on the topic. I haven't kept up with it since.

One technique is to focus your research on products that are largely stable in quality. For example, wine glasses. Not plastic ones, but glass or crystal. They've got a fairly large distribution in "quality" or at least in price and yet had a fairly stable range of quality since the 1950s.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by vanderZwan on Thursday June 07, 2018 @07:39AM (#17254917)
Thank you for answering. Sounds like a wicked problem.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by jhall1468 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:44AM (#17247080)
Food is included in the CPI calculation, as is rent. Mortgages are not as they are an investment vehicle rather than an expense.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IanCal on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:41AM (#17247495)
I think their point is that CPI calculations use a single basket of goods for 'everyone' while in reality different people

So their example was that if restaurant food hasn't increased in price by much, but basic groceries have then the 'inflation' seen by different groups may be very different.

Another example may be that if average housing costs increase just a bit, but the lowest rents have increased the most then cost of living changes could be significantly different between mid and low income families.

I'm not saying either of those examples accurately reflect how things are changing in the US (as I don't have the data to hand), but they are realistic scenarios.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by xapata on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @12:16PM (#17248360)
For most goods, it's the opposite -- over the last decades, luxury goods have inflated faster than staples. Similarly, real incomes have increased faster for higher incomes. At least, that's what the last paper I read on the topic said, which was published about 8 years ago.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by erikb on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:34AM (#17247958)
I think I've shown some examples that are really tough to represent in the statistics. Please read them again and reply how you think they are considered. E.g. how is it considered that cost of owning a house has increased together with the sell value, while the rent has increased without increasing the quality/value/size of the apartments?

My whole point is that adding things and then dividing by the sum of things is not a way to represent the reality that people face. You need to argue against that if you want to make a counter point. Just repeating what the person said that I responded to (after reading what he wrote) doesn't provide anything to the discussion.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by Brakenshire on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:18AM (#17246380)
Yes, although it's always worth asking what measure of inflation is being used. Whoever makes the statistic usually picks the measure most favourable to their point, the most common wheeze is not including housing costs where they should be included.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by stdbrouw on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#17246521)
I agree that housing costs should be included in some way, but this is hard to do correctly because – at least if you buy – housing is an investment good, not an expense. In the US the bureau of labor tries to calculate the "owners' equivalent rent"; the EU on the other hand considers the cost of housing and inflation to be strictly separate measures. Rents are generally included, though.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:06AM (#17246767)
That's true at the EU level for the inflation measure of the European Central Bank. But national governments tend to have their own (modified) versions of the HCIP which do include things like owner-equivalent rent or mortgage rates.

Not trying to argue semantics here, your point is completely correct but it may be confusing to say 'the EU (as if, as a whole) considers housing and inflation as separate measures'.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by humanrebar on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:46AM (#17246604)
> ...housing is an investment good...

Only if you realize the appreciation somehow.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by maccard on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:57AM (#17246691)
You realize it by default at the end of a mortgage when you're not paying it anymore.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by howard941 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:05AM (#17247217)
Or you don't because you literally default on the mortgage. Or perhaps you rent and it's really hard to consider housing an investment. It's more like some hybrid of necessary living expense optionally coupled to a consumer investment not amenable to being written off as a tax loss.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by dghughes on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:50AM (#17246635)
>Please reserve comment about the "cost of living" or inflation, as those are (technically) accounted for in this number.

But all of them or missing some? In Canada there are various inflation calculators: CPI, CPIX, SHS, MEANSTD, CPIW, price-level targeting, all including or excluding various things like gasoline, transit, mortgages, some taxes, tobacco.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by nabla9 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:25AM (#17246937)
In the US BLS headline CPI is used, I think.

>all including or excluding various things like gasoline, transit, mortgages, some taxes, tobacco.

You can critique inflation measures, but there is good critique and bad critique.

Including some items can introduce unnecessary noise or make the measurement less accurate over long term. Some prices can be safely left out from the price basket because their prices are know to get into the index indirectly.

In US CPI used to overestimate inflation mostly because slow adjustments. CPI is modified to correct to this. Most developed nations use good modern CPI measures that take into account things like product substitution etc.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by dghughes on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:30AM (#17265081)
My rule of thumb is whatever makes my wallet smaller is what concerns me. So whichever inflation index includes that is the one I would use.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by lotsofpulp on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:19AM (#17246381)
Technically correct, but there are huge regional differences for real wage increase and cost increases in many countries, so what people experience is different than what a national statistic confers.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by api on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:31AM (#17246486)
I'm of the opinion that economic statistics become almost worthless from the perspective of politics and policy once you get to a certain sample size.

A cost of living statistic that averages out cost of living between say Michigan and coastal California is quite wrong in both places. It will grossly underestimate cost of living in California and overestimate it in Michigan.

I think this is one of the major problems with politics and economic policy setting at the national and global level. National and global leaders look at big aggregate statistics, which completely blinds them to the street level realities everywhere except those places that happen to coincide with the statistical median. Most places do not coincide with the statistical median. I think this largely explains the recent global populist uprising as well as the fact that global leaders were surprised by it.

Large scale macro statistics might be useful for setting things like Fed interest rates, but they're nearly worthless for addressing local problems.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:56AM (#17246680)
Fortunately we have exactly such local and sector level inflation statistics. They just don't get published in the media much because who wants to read tables for all states and provinces of tens of different countries. (e.g. https://www.bls.gov/regions/subjects/consumer-price-indexes....)

The national government looks at national figures, that's not worthless. The state looks at state figures. And the municipality looks at local figures. This idea that politicians are completely blind and have no idea of street level realities, only exist at the national level, or have no data or policy instruments beyond the national level is a joke, but it seems almost like you're implying just that.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by syntaxfree on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:49AM (#17246625)
There's also Goodhart's law: when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by api on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @01:06PM (#17248902)
You see this a lot in machine learning. Reward a neural network or evolutionary algorithm for identifying squirrels vs. cats and you'll get one that compares one pixel of the usually beige wall color in mostly indoor shots of cats vs. the non-beige pixel found in mostly outdoor shots of squirrels.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by anoncoward111 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#17246519)
This is exactly correct. Additionally, qualitative data needs to be factored into policy decisions as well.

If a city looks and feels unsafe, dirty, deserted, and so on, then it probably is those things. No amount of statistics can explain away the experience of any unbiased, reasonable observer.

Park your car in the center of town somewhere. Hang out and eat a sandwich with your windows open in your car. See who walks by, hear the noises, the beeps, the sirens, the shouting kids or quiet wind.

Then you'll know what a town is really like.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:21AM (#17246897)
Not sure I agree there. There are plenty of historical examples of people seeing things in bizarre ways that simply weren't true. We see this recently with crime statistics dropping across the board, terrorism being less dangerous than bees, and people feeling less safe than ever.

I'd say plenty of people aren't fully aware of ways in which their lives get cheaper or better. That's just 'normal'. Whereas growing up and paying $2 for a coffee, and now 15 years later it's $3, is just a sign of you getting squeezed, and people are very much aware of that.

One cognitive / measurement issue here is hedonic inflation.

For example, the average new home was 1000 square feet in the 20th century and 2500 square feet today. Meanwhile, average household sizes decreased. We all got bigger houses with fewer people to share them with. We also got universal central heating, hot piped water, flush toilets.

Similarly, our computers have gotten faster. I don't need to explain the implications of moore's law to anyone here.

Suppose the average $1000 computer gets twice as fast previous year. Is that to be measured as inflation or no change? No change? Perhaps, average prices remained constant. But inflation is, among other things, a purchasing power kind of metric. 'How much computing power can I purchase with this money'. In that sense, prices halved. In short, there was deflation, on a hedonic basis.

This is something a lot of people don't realise. Inflation figures are sometimes suppressed by such improvements (which halved computing prices, even if sticker prices didn't change). Homes got more than twice as big, computers a thousand times as fast, these things can't simply be ignored by stating 'average homes and computers are more expensive', which is the reality that people experience in real life when looking at sticker prices of computers and rental properties. The reality that people often omit is that the product itself has massively improved.

Same with healthcare. Yes, costs increased. So did outcomes. Try surviving cancer today vs 50 years ago. Try living till 80 years old on average, 50 years ago, when life expectancy was sub 70.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?tab=chart...

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by dustingetz on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:09AM (#17246795)
Macro voices (the best macro podcast in the world right now) recent guest mentioned in passing that inflation would be a lot higher if measured differently implying that the 2% number has been gamed. (Goodhart's law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure")
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by mysterypie on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:06AM (#17246769)
> "Real pay" means nominal pay adjusted for inflation. So if pay went up by 3%, and inflation was 2%, you'd get something like a 1% "real" pay increase.

Wow, if you're right about the meaning of "real pay" (and I do think you're correct[1]), then The Economist is being pretty dishonest in their reporting by not explaining that important point. It makes a huge difference in how anyone interprets the story. How many people reading The Economist are actually economists? I for one assumed that The Economist was saying that people on average are massively worse off since 2000 -- which is the obvious conclusion if (nominal) pay increased 1% a year but inflation was 2-3% a year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_versus_nominal_value_(eco...

EDIT: I'd like to mention that "real" meaning "adjusted for inflation" is easily misinterpreted when used in normal English sentences. The article says, "In most rich countries, real pay has grown by at most 1% per year." That sounds a lot like, "In most rich countries, your actual paycheck has grown by at most 1% per year." Or, "In most rich countries, the pay you get after taxes has grown by at most 1% per year." Or other senses in which "real" has a normal English meaning rather than "adjusted for inflation".

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by Brakenshire on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:17AM (#17246856)
'Real pay' is a very well established term, The Economist will assume that its audience understands that kind of jargon. It's really not at all dishonest.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by CamelCaseName on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:23AM (#17246916)
I'm surprised that you feel that the Economist was being dishonest. "Real value" is such a basic term that virtually everyone in finance, economics, and politics should know. It was taught in my high school economics classes, one certainly need not be an economist to understand.

Defining real vs nominal in this article would be like defining "variable" and "recursion" in an article about deep learning implementation at Google. Completely annoying and useless to those who subscribe.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by pjc50 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:18AM (#17246865)
The Economist writes for an audience which is assumed to know these things, or at least be able to look them up. Just as the average HN article is not expected to explain what React is.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by Consultant32452 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:22AM (#17246904)
The economist isn't being dishonest, "real pay" is a very widely used way of saying "adjusted for inflation."
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by Kalium on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:44AM (#17247532)
You're right! That's a term of art that can easily be misinterpreted by an uneducated reader.

Rather than doing what the Eonomist tends to do and assume an educated readership, they should have defined any term not daily used by someone possessed of an education past that of the 8th grade or so. This would ensure that every single reader, every single time, without any exceptions, would attain full, proper, and correct understanding. No saying "real wages" - define it as nominal wage growth less inflation. And don't just say "nominal" or "inflation", define them. Immediately and in context, so that anyone can understand.

Alternately, readers could put forth the minimal amount of effort required to Google any jargon (and "real pay" is pretty clearly jargon) they did not immediately know the definition of. I understand if some readers consider this work they should not be expected to do or otherwise an undue burden to which they refuse to rise.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by emodendroket on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:21AM (#17246896)
Should they also explain the bicameral structure of the US legislature in every article about Congress?
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by a_136_chiffa on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:32AM (#17265113)
Not really - the inflation is currently reported on a "reference consumer basket", which doesn't really represent different segments of society.

In other terms, if you are spending on health care of education you are in a really bad place - prices for those services have risen at about 8x the inflation rate over the last 40 years. IF you are purchasing or building a house you will face prices 3x inflation price. However, if you are mostly buying electronics and software, the prices have actually fallen by about 50-80% over the same period.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by sonnyblarney on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:48AM (#17246623)
"inflation" is not "cost of living" really.

Cost of living is a variety of factors, moreover, inflation tends to not include housing and fuel. Though there are many measure of inflation ...

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by criddell on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:58AM (#17246694)
Why doesn't inflation include housing and fuel?
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by mercutio2 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @10:04AM (#17247206)
I’m not sure why housing and fuel were juxtaposed; most “core” inflation indexes I’m familiar with remove fuel and FOOD, because the short term volatility for those two are very high.

[A national estimate of] housing generally is included.

I don’t agree with the root poster of this thread, though, because real wages are generally indexed to national consumption, whereas housing specifically (and to a lesser extent, food and services) are local markets, so you can have real wage growth but if you live in a high COL area, you really do have to look at real income and deflate (slightly! People often do COL deflation on gross salary, which is silly) for COL.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by sonnyblarney on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:21AM (#17246891)
There are various ways to do inflation, most governments release a variety of measures.

Fuel is not included sometimes because of it's inherent volatility, it jams the numbers up and does not give a clear picture.

Housing - I think they might include rent but not mortgages as the later reflects consumption over times other than for when inflation is calculated.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by billysielu on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @09:14AM (#17246831)
to make the number smaller, so they can pay you less
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by kgwgk on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:47AM (#17246615)
Note as well that the increase in pay for the average individual will be higher than the average increase. Older, better-payed people are exiting the workforce while younger, less-well-paid people enter the system.
Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by galieos_ghost on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:32AM (#17246492)
housing cost, health insurance, and college tuition aren't counted in inflation. Economists and politicians can lie all they want but there's a reason people are angry enough to vote Trump or Bernie Sanders and it's because they can tell their standard of living is dropping. Don't piss on my boot and tell me it's raining

If the establishment was doing it's job people wouldn't vote anti-establishment.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:38AM (#17246530)
> housing cost and health insurance aren't counted in inflation.

Generally, that's simply not true. There are infinite different measures of inflation and it's up to the synthesizer of the inflation metric to include or exclude things, but generally housing and medical care are part of the equation.

Re:If wages are to rise, workers need more bargaining power by sshagent on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#17246510)
Indeed. My rent has gone up in 50% from 5 years, 100% total from 10 years ago. My salary is up just 20% over that 10 years and still well below what i was rocking pre 2008.