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Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by mrfusion on Sunday June 03, 2018 @05:08PM (#17222066)
Honestly a lot of it is the cost of medical care these days. I don’t mind if my kid is in a cast but I’m out 15k + if they break a bone.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by majewsky on Sunday June 03, 2018 @06:04PM (#17222548)
That can't be all of it. The same change has been taking place in Germany (a country with quite comprehensive healthcare insurance), although probably not as pronounced as in the US.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by watwut on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:50AM (#17225217)
The Germany attitude toward freedom for children is completely different then American one. In Germany, first graders are expected to walk to and from school by themselves. They play outside alone, and slide on giant slides while nobody cares about posted 10+ sign. They are not overprotective the way Americans are.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by poulsbohemian on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @05:50PM (#17251400)
I began walking to school (about a mile) from first grade onward. I also studied in Germany as a college student.

I walk two of my kids to school daily.

Why? It isn't really the kids I worry about, it's the idiot adults. Around their school there are:

-- School zone signs, indicating the 20MPH speed reduction area. -- Flashing yellow lights that only activate during school hours -- Middle-of-the-road barriers that indicate there is a school zone ahead -- Painted crosswalks -- Adults with crossing flags to indicate the crosswalk. Sometimes they even wear orange safety vests. -- The speed limit within a half-mile in all directions is 25MPH

Guess what? Cars still blow through in excess of 40MPH, even with kids present. I've been nearly run over on multiple occasions.

This is in a rural ("family values") community. It's pure anarchy, that's why I don't let my kids walk to school alone.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by theandrewbailey on Monday June 04, 2018 @11:22AM (#17228604)
Americans need laws to affirm that their kids can walk to and from school alone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-f...

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by bambataa on Monday June 04, 2018 @08:18AM (#17227028)
Germany also seems to make more of a thing out of forest kindergartens (Waldkindergarten), which sound amazing to me. Still supervised I suppose, but at least they’re outdoors.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by jacobolus on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:56AM (#17225238)
Funny enough, just yesterday some German tourists watched my not-quite-2 year old slide down a giant slide in San Francisco and remarked that they don't have such big slides where they live in Germany.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by javajosh on Monday June 04, 2018 @03:44AM (#17225436)
There are some seriously cool and dangerous looking playgrounds in Berlin. Many of them have ziplines, trampolines, and other long-since banned playthings. And I see kids on them almost every day.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by scandinavegan on Monday June 04, 2018 @04:16AM (#17225597)
We vacationed in Berlin last summer with two kids, and that place is famous for its fantastic playgrounds. It was rare to see the same designs repeated over and over as you do in other cities, and each playground was more or less unique.

As you say, stuff where you balance quite high up, but usually with a softer material on the ground than asphalt so that a fall isn't lethal. I never saw kids fall and hurt themselves, so I don't know what would happen if they fell from the maximum height, but they wouldn't die.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by wiredfool on Monday June 04, 2018 @05:01AM (#17225833)
We were in Germany last summer and I was amazed that they had a 5m diving platform at a public pool. (along with 3m & 1m springboards).

I had my (then) 10 and 12yr olds go for it, because I had no idea where else they'd ever get the chance to try.

(OTOH, I tried the 1m springboard and got water in my ear that took days to get out. I'm not as young as I once was)

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by namibj on Monday June 04, 2018 @06:17AM (#17226307)
At public pay-per-use pools we sometimes also have 7.5m and 10m platforms. As well as 5m springboards. They require deeper water, and are more expensive to build, but that's about it. E.g., near cologne there is an indoor pool with at least a 7.5m and 10m platform. I don't remember if the 5m one is a board or a concrete slab. But from 5m upwards it hurts on your feet if you hit the water at the wrong angle, and it only get's worse from there.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by wiredfool on Monday June 04, 2018 @06:29AM (#17226377)
It's not the building expense, it's the insurance.

I remember the 3m springboard taken out of my pool in the states in the 80's, and I can't remember ever seeing a diving board in use at a pool in Ireland.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by namibj on Monday June 04, 2018 @12:56PM (#17229772)
Uh, no, this is the reason I assume for why only some pools in Germany have them. But I pity the american bubble wrap culture. It makes my dislike for visiting the states just stronger.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by throwawayjava on Monday June 04, 2018 @01:10PM (#17229889)
> But I pity the american bubble wrap culture.

I don't see this in pools. 3m spring boards are still pretty common at pools in the US. My "nothing special" high school had 3m springs.

It's true that the 5m,7m,10m platforms are usually only found in sportsplex-type pools. They typically come as a package. But as you mentioned in an earlier comment, 5m+ starts the get actually dangerous. Flopping from 10m or even 7m without an agitator can do serious permanent damage. IMO a platform tower above 3m (or maybe 5m) is more "expensive sports equipment" than "general public recreational equipment".

I maybe could see a 5m platform as "general public recreational equipment", but 7 and 10 are definitely not. And there are just better ways to use time/money than building a 5m platform when you already have 3m spring boards.

American pools are moving away from exercise and toward recreation/amusement (i.e., switching out swimming lanes for "water playgrounds" and switching out diving boards for water slides). But that's a totally different phenomenon from "bubble wrap culture"; IMO those water playgrounds are way more dangerous than traditional pools (I've seen more than one kid injure themselves pretty seriously jumping off of the water playground into ~2ft water; that would never happen in a lane-swimming pool). And personally, I've had more injuries on water slides than on 1m or 3m spring boards.

So there's something annoying going on with American swimming pools, but it's not bubble wrap culture.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by namibj on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:54PM (#17240852)
Agitator? Ugh... the 10m one where the 10yo kids were jumping had no waves. The water was perfectly flat. Or at least not deliberately agitated. There do seem to only be 3 of these in the local conurbation [0] (10 million population), giving 3.3 million inhabitants per tower, compared to 5.3 for the whole US. So yes, they might be more prevalent around here, but I don't know how open the facilities in the US are to the public/minors. They seem to be used for the Olympics and the associated training though.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Ruhr

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by throwawayjava on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:32PM (#17267083)
> the 10m one where the 10yo kids were jumping had no waves

I know many, many just-below-olympic level divers. Of those, one suffered "minor" injuries (deep bruising basically everywhere on their body and a burst ear drum) and one suffered major life-threatening internal injuries (collapsed lung) after landing on their belly/back from 10m.

The person with the less severe injuries flopped with the aerator on, which is probably the only reason the injuries weren't more serious.

Diving from 10m is absolutely dangerous, even for professionals, especially without an aerator.

> but I don't know how open the facilities in the US are to the public/minors.

In the USA, at the places I know of, untrained children are allowed to dive off of 10m platforms during "free swimming" times. But only straight dives, and only after they demonstrate straight dives off of 5m and 7m.

Which seems like a sensible compromise, given the risks.

(Exceptions are always possible. If you are training for platform diving, you can simply tell the life guard and they will let you do fancier dives from 10m.)

> giving 3.3 million inhabitants per tower, compared to 5.3 for the whole US

"conurbation vs. entire population" not a fair comparison -- a huge portion of the US population lives in rural areas that couldn't support a diving tower even if they wanted to.

All of the USA cities whose diving infrastructure I know about have between 1 million to 2 million inhabitants per tower. According to that metric, the USA is less risk averse about diving (but actually, it's really just a matter of wealth and interest, because diving is an expensive sport and platforms are actually specialized sports equipment).

Edit: Also, the wiki list of 10m platforms in the usa is out of date or just wrong. None of the 10m platforms I've used on a regular basis are on that list...

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by jraby3 on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:59AM (#17225249)
I think a lot of people have moved to cities from suburbs. With the amount of traffic nearby I can't leave my kids alone the way my parents did with me.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by ethbro on Monday June 04, 2018 @08:42AM (#17227151)
Is traffic really that deadly? I feel like urban crosswalks are a solved problem, even for young kids.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by matt_the_bass on Monday June 04, 2018 @11:56AM (#17229153)
You’ve never walked in my city I guess.

Last year there was a fatal car accident. The driver was going so fast down a narrow, one lane road that when he hit a car pulling out of the driveway, the car flipped over. Imagine how pedestrians feel about that or parents feel about that to their kids.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by ethbro on Monday June 04, 2018 @01:29PM (#17230056)
There were about 400k accidents, 20k serious injuries, 1,500 total traffic fatalities, and 250 pedestrian fatalities in my current state last year. Out of a population of 10.5 million.

Which puts the per capita likelihood at 3.8, 0.2, 0.015, 0.0024% respectively, per year.

Parents have a right to their own decisions, but retarding a child's growth because of a fear of something that's only 20x as likely as getting struck by lightning?

Personally, that seems literally insane.

If my child were to be killed by a driver, I would mourn for the rest of my life, but at least I'd know they lived in the time they had on this Earth.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by matt_the_bass on Saturday June 09, 2018 @06:20AM (#17272333)
I think that’s fair if personal action had no impact on the rates. Consider the possibility that these numbers are in part born from our own protections to those events. For example, I’ve taught my kids to look before crossing the street, what’s out for cars speeding on side streets and don’t run after toys rolling into the street. Without those guidelines, I’m certain they would have come close to injury or death.

Being struck by lightening is a poor comparison since that is almost entirely avoidable with actions that most people follow subconsciously: they don’t want to walk through a field in the pooring rain. Chance of death from being run over by a cruise ship is also low. People generally don’t want to go swimming where they are transiting. Do you encourage your kids the jump of the pier when the ship is docking?

Chance of death from being hit by a TVG is pretty low. They only run on tracks with protected right of way, so it’s difficult to find oneself on their tracks. Do you encourage your kids to climb that fence and walk those tracks?

Death from traffic is not quite the same, but similar.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by drdrey on Sunday June 03, 2018 @09:59PM (#17223925)
I think there is more concern about abductions than broken bones. I also used to roam free on my bike when I was a kid, but am guilty of airdropping my kid to activities.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by masonic on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:37AM (#17225172)
Like school shootings, stranger abductions occur at a much lower rate than a generation ago but are far more hyped by the media now.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by prawn on Monday June 04, 2018 @04:25AM (#17225648)
I imagine the thinking is not that it's more or less likely, but just that it's possible. When you have something that is infinitely valuable to you, even slight risk is a factor.

Historically, someone might've had 5-10 children and it acted as a form of redundancy. I think that feeling has changed significantly!

Conversely, I think there is a greater emphasis on extra-curricular activities now. These days, there is a feeling that you're selling your kid short or failing to set them up well if you don't have them enrolled in swimming lessons from maybe two years of age, in dance or sports or kinder-gym classes around 3-5 years of age, and then in after-school sports programs once they start school.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by ethbro on Monday June 04, 2018 @08:57AM (#17227255)
I don't think that's fairly explained by more children -> fewer children.

Something else had to have happened.

I'd hazard that on the whole Americans are less tolerant of risk than they were 60 years ago.

As an explanation, I'd tenuously tie it to a decrease in "real world physics" employment (e.g. farming, manufacturing). When 50% of the population works in farming (circa 1870), they have one way of evaluating risk and human capabilities. When that number drops to 2%, it's easy to forget how robust humans are.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by prawn on Monday June 04, 2018 @10:08PM (#17234414)
Could well be part of it.

Obviously, we're increasingly aware of the risks (usually without any appreciation of the odds). Previously, you heard through close circles. Now, by the time you're a parent, you've heard of hundreds of ways your child might die through news, movies, etc.

I'm a parent of three, and I actively work to minimise risk amongst my kids where I think it's appropriate, but I'm always conscious of when I'm doing it and try to balance it.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by ethbro on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @08:42AM (#17237088)
Why we (as a whole) respond that way makes sense from what I know about experimental psych.

If news is optimized for clicks / views, negative stories are more engaging, and the availability heuristic is accurate (aka we assign greater importance to things we can immediately recall), then viewing profit-on-engagement news fundamentally reshapes our opinion of the world.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by brlewis on Monday June 04, 2018 @08:39AM (#17227127)
I think the lesson from this article is that overprotection carries its own risks.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by maxxxxx on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:23PM (#17224051)
Do you really believe there are abductors everywhere?
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by jcims on Monday June 04, 2018 @01:46AM (#17224986)
It's basically a form of terrorism.

Abductors don't need to be everywhere. They just have to be a plausible threat to affect the thought process of a parent that's deciding whether or not they are going to leave their child completely unsupervised and unattended.

Maybe if the media didn't have a fetish for covering the incidents that do happen. Maybe if there wasn't a vocal subculture that crucifies parents for leaving their children to their own devices. Maybe if the thought of having the center of your world being beaten, violated and murdered at the hands of a stranger wasn't so mind-numbingly horrific. Maybe then this trend would start going the other way.

Or not? Sure parents used to let their kids roam free. They also let them ride in the back of pickup trucks and beat their asses when they did something wrong. There's probably a healthy middle ground.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by isostatic on Monday June 04, 2018 @03:02AM (#17225263)
I'm not concerned about abductions - no more than being struck by lightning. I am concerned about traffic, which is far heavier than it was 30 years ago and much more likely (than abduction/lightning) to end in serious injury or death.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by jcims on Monday June 04, 2018 @03:20AM (#17225339)
That’s a good point, definitely a factor.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by drdrey on Monday June 04, 2018 @01:30AM (#17224914)
No, but it still seems like an unbearable outcome
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by kgwgk on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:55AM (#17225237)
It seemed like a bearable outcome to your parents. ;-)
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by test6554 on Sunday June 03, 2018 @11:39PM (#17224405)
There was an article in the newspaper a week or two ago about an attempted abduction 1/2 mile from my house. Kid was walking home from elementary school and they tried to entice her into a van.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by flerchin on Sunday June 03, 2018 @11:41PM (#17224416)
You may dislike it, but this behavior is a social norm.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by beamatronic on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:45AM (#17225196)
Yes, are you not on Nextdoor? You would be shocked.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by garmaine on Monday June 04, 2018 @01:35AM (#17224941)
Yes.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by Arbalest on Monday June 04, 2018 @02:21AM (#17225109)
This has occurred to me too. I am not sure (as I am not up to date with the stats) if abductions are up or down as a %, but if you think of it like supply and demand, the supply of easily abductable children is way down.

What I would suggest then is that, those that are left to roam are in more danger than those who aren't, because there aren't as many alternate targets. There are also fewer witnesses now too. So even if you think it is a big scare, there is less, to use a vaccination analogue (incorrectly I know), herd immunity.

Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by flukus on Monday June 04, 2018 @03:49AM (#17225465)
At the same time parents allow their kids to upload videos to youtube. A lot of would be abductors probably don't need to leave the house anymore.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by gaius on Monday June 04, 2018 @06:50AM (#17226505)
If it helps, abductions are very rarely random strangers, almost always someone already known to the child.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by dblohm7 on Sunday June 03, 2018 @09:13PM (#17223678)
Canadian here: it's just as bad even with universal healthcare.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by taneq on Sunday June 03, 2018 @09:38PM (#17223814)
What? $15k+ for a kid's broken arm?
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by glibgil on Monday June 04, 2018 @12:17AM (#17224577)
No, the kids aren't roaming in Canada either
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by taneq on Monday June 04, 2018 @04:27AM (#17225655)
Oh, right. Yeah, that would make sense. I think it's largely due to the ever increasing range and sensationalism of reporting - 50 years ago you'd only hear about the rare incident in your own hometown, and maybe particularly lurid events nationwide. Now a kid comes to grief on the other side of the world and you hear about it, leading to a grossly inflated perception of the risks.
Re:Why Children Aren't Behaving and What We Can Do About It by linkmotif on Sunday June 03, 2018 @11:57PM (#17224488)
Your kids don’t have health insurance?