I feel this too. Most of my cis male friends won't date people that will make less money than them. I know I won't.

Is your intention to have a partner that walks in lockstep through career paths over the course of a long career?

How do you intend to deal with illness, career changes & family raising?

I think lower earning person can make up by doing extra chores and house work. That's what I do now. Not sure how fair that is but I think it's fair.

Yup. Most men will actually marry down economically, but women generally marry up economically. Perhaps when this is finally noticed, men will only marry their equals. With women graduating college at higher rates, perhaps this changes?

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/marrying-down-why-men-are-the...

My wife prefers a career working with autistic children, and earns much less than I do as a software developer because of that preference. She is amazing and I want to enable her to do whatever she is happiest doing using the money I am fortunate to be earning, as much as she is willing to let me help. You're looking at other human beings as merely economic objects and that's not going to net you happiness long-term. Consider each human you meet on the merits of their character, not their wallets...

This thread is ridiculous. Come back to earth, get out and meet real people.

> You're looking at other human beings as merely economic objects

I don't mean to be offensive but don't you think she considered your earning potential while choosing you as her husband?

There is nothing wrong with doing it, ppl have beeen doing it forever. Nothing immoral about it. It does go into the equation.

My wife cares very little about money. She developed her own methods for getting the most out of life without it, and is always suggesting that I spend less of it. I've been able to show her the benefits of having extra money and she's been able to show me how to live well frugally (not that I'm a big spender in the first place).

Thats awesome man!. Congrats on finding a good mate.

> Most men will actually marry down economically, but women generally marry up economically.

If the first phrase is true, then the second must also be.

Of course we're conflating income with wealth (or 'economical value'), which may be fraught.

> Perhaps when this is finally noticed, men will only marry their equals.

I think asking all men to think the way you think is going to be disappointing.

I also think that proposing the evaluation of people based on income and/or economic potential is breathtakingly depressing.

I notice that a lot of your comments are declared as absolute truths, often applying to large demographics, without much to back those claims up.

It feels like you've got strong opinions (that's perfectly okay!) and think your view of the world is shared by many / most other people (this, not so much).

I read a lot of studies and listen to political scientist lectures who draw the same conclusions that I do (Charles Murray. Victor David Hanson). Most times, I am too lazy to link to the case studies or books that discuss my points. Guilty as charged for having strong opinions; however, when I try to discuss them I am attacked, vilified and down voted into oblivion. Do this often enough and you will start to get resentful and seek like minded individuals who think the same way. Then bam, you are trapped in your own ideological echo chamber. I recognize this and am trying to grow beyond that. J Peterson lectures on maps of meaning, actually helped me realize this and I now see that it goes both ways. Growing up, my peers and elders told me I was very intelligent and had enormous potential. If I had not able to out think my frustration and anger, then perhaps I would have been one of these incel mass shooters when I was a young teen. That same rage and frustration I was able to overcome, I see it prevalent in many young men and women. People often tell me I am insightful and have future vision at times, so my concern for humanity and our collective future often leads me to ranting like a cranky old curmudgeon with anonymous throwaway accounts. This is one of few available outlets to vent and express myself.

Self expression is all well and good, but when participating in a discussion, we'd all be much better served if you didn't hurl offensive and ungrounded insults at large segments of the population. Curmudgeonly is one way to put it; immature and ignorant is another.

thanks.

Thank you for your very candid response.

I trust that you'll take my comments in good faith.

Smart people often tend to assume extremes of the people they're talking to - either that they're very smart, like themselves, or very dumb. Naturally, there's a spectrum.

Having strong opinions, as you note, can sometimes put people off -- but you say that when you try to discuss them you feel attacked. I felt from your comments in this thread that you weren't here to discuss [your opinions]. I may be misinterpreting, of course, and it'd be up to you to decide if this, and other exchanges are going as you'd expected.

I appreciate the appeal of like-minded individuals -- though I've yet to find any : ) -- and I'm cheered to see that you're wary of the echo chamber risk. If it's a genuine concern, rather than hyperbole, that it may (have) led to some extreme anti-social / violent incidents, then I'd strongly and seriously encourage you to talk to people more experienced than randos on HN.

I'm pretty familiar with Murray but you seem to be taking some of his claims and making them a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Aim higher.

Thanks for the insight, was not trying to do that, but in review I certainly did. Always trying to aim higher. Can you recommend any good political science or demographic books beside from author William Strauss? My intention is really to understand to understand the chaos around me. Forgive me for coming off steamed, but as I was an orphan as a child and was a ward of the court until I was emancipated at age 18. State Bureaucracies, Social trends, Demographics, Poverty and Education were elements that shaped my life and continue to fascinate me and instill a desire to seek answers. truly being genuine here.

I would recommend learning more about the things you hate.

I used to hate modern art. I thought it was only for obnoxious people. Then I decided to take a college course on it and it's my favorite period of art because I learned to understand it. For the same reasons, I decided to take a course on the black power movement. My parents were racist so I was probably racist so I wanted to learn more. I learned about the Civil rights movement and discovered many personal heroes. I used to dislike John McCain and politics even though I knew very little about either, until I saw a documentary about McCain and learned he was literally a hero. I used to think finance, statistics, and programming were for smart people unlike me, until I learned more and developed a love for it.

I used to think the red pill was complete trash until someone forced me to watch the red pill documentary. It led to a painful breakup where we both weren't able to empathize with each other's traumas. I could not empathize with his pain of feeling inferior (because that's my status quo) and he could not empathize with the systemic oppression and violence against women (physical, sexual, and emotional). I feel he felt that his father may have been taken advantage of, abused and used financially and feared that for himself. While I watched my father abuse my mother, emotionally and financially, and feared that for myself. It was strange how we both felt strongly about both sides, the same problem, except we were passionately divided simply because of gender. I learned a lot and probably will always be learning from that experience.

Every time I've challenged my views, I've been rewarded.

Two books I've enjoyed or am enjoying that are about chaos:

Evicted by Mathew Desmond covers American poverty from a housing perspective.

The Big Short covers the 2008 financial crisis and it's much more informative than the film.

You make some great points. thanks.

lol the awesome thing about incels is they make it immediately obvious to everyone as to why they've been unsuccessful at finding a partner because of their revolting personalities

>The traditional routes and social contract are broken.

There is definitely some truth here. Can you find a partner and/or community of people who share your understanding of the traditional social expectations?

PUA is a community of sorts, but also has core beliefs so inimical to the opposite sex that it doesn't seem very sustainable.

> Perhaps turning men into non toxic soy boys who salivate at being feminist activists will turn America into utopia for all.

You don't deserve to be part of this discussion throwing around these phrases. This is why you are being downvoted.

You contribute no value. You make the conversation worse through your participation.

I was being a dick there, I admit it. Just a subject that I am passionate about. But the thread did spiral into something else. Sometimes you just throw shit and see what sticks.

Sometimes you do, but please resist the temptation to do it here. We're trying for a higher quality of discussion than is prevalent on the rest of the internet, and for that to work, we need users like you on board.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am going to give some unsolicited advice to you:

Do not fall into the incel trap. Do not start hating women.

Hate society if you want, understand that due to your perspective as a guy, you will fixate on what is wrong with women but what is wrong with women is what is wrong with society at large, the bias of your perspective aside.

Focus on yourself, toughen up and learn to accept rejection and just meet as many women as you can. That is the only path to success. Do you think those bitter incels are celebrating their misogyny? Sure, but only through their tears.

That life is not worth it. It is harder to build yourself up than tear other people down but more worthwhile.

Hey, I'm not a soy boy, I'm a soy man, and I'm up to my eyeballs in cute, fun, financially self-sufficient women.

Shame they show so much interest when you're engaged to another cute, fun, actualized lady, eh?? Sorry, to use the jargon you might understand....cute, fun, actualized female.

Careful, or he'll be so triggered he accuses you of virtue-signalling.

That's okay, I'm in my safe space.