Think it through though. It's easy to follow the bandwagon of guys that purport that life to be the solution (I read all this stuff too), and I thought it was too at some point. I think you should go taste that lifestyle, but I think you'd find it to be only a short term fix and the same sort of "trap" awaiting you at the end.

The solution to just simply arm yourself with all the knowledge you can, and then embark on the path to self-actualize. Between self-actualization and playing things close to your vest and smart, I think you can still make it work very well in America. Nowhere has the same purchasing power parity too for tech salaries (except maybe Switzerland).

Much appreciated man. Yeah, I have been doing the digital nomad lifestyle and lived abroad for a few weeks at a time for the past five years. I do see the trap that befalls most expats and am aware of risks. The months that I spend abroad are the happiest time of my life, when I come back to the states and can't get a date, am told I am toxic and a potential rapist and have to live in a city where homelessness is spiraling out of control and cost of living constantly rising beyond wage inflation, then I start to question everything that society tells me.

I appreciate the advice for self actualization. That is what constantly working on. In my free time, I am finishing my B.S. in Comp Sci/EE, travel internationally, work on certs, hang with my bros, hone my craft, enjoy new hobbies, write creatively, and try to stay sane and physically fit. The problems is that the more I walk down this path, the less tolerance I have for those who deter me from achieving these goals and those who don't impact my life in any positive way. As a 5'll light skinned multi-racial young man, when I try to date online or approach the opposite sex for any sort of intimacy or potential relationship, I get rejected and told I am too short, ethnic looking and am not rich enough by women who earn less than me and made bad life choices. Sigh, I suppose that makes me the asshole for not wanting to deal with this, trying to understand these trends and looking for a way out.

That's cool you tried it. I've done prolonged fast travel before, which is overrated. But staying in one spot for 1-3 months is something I think could be underrated and I want to try.

One trick I use sometimes is to imagine that I'm abroad even though I'm in my normal city. It makes things more interesting and gives me more energy for interactions.

The short and ethnic thing I could understand being frustrating. I'm basically 6' and white and pretty good looking. But even so, it's not the end all. It just opens the door. I don't get with the "cool" types of girls because I don't follow pop culture and play those games. Those types of girls you don't even want. It's tough though. Best way to meet girls is meetup-type stuff like a local running group, local language meetup, etc. Actually care about the activity and befriend the guys, etc. Then the benefits with girls come in a few months (take it slow and don't be the creepy/loser guy just there for girls). ex. I started going to the language meetup, and going hard in the languages and being kind of silly and fun. Now 2 years in, all the regulars know me and I have cred there. If I ever take a girl there, she knows I'm cool. Or new girls there know that I'm cool from the social proof.

If I didn't have a great family that I want to see monthly, I would definitely consider the moving overseas thing.

Basically you just focus on YOUR PATH and believe in what you spend YOUR TIME on. I think people get magnetized towards people with a "purpose" who can spread life energy instead of trying to take energy(this girl should give me love, this guy should give me respect or validation, etc).

If you are constantly getting turned down for dates, you are doing something wrong - probably approaching the wrong kind of people in the first place. Instead of looking for the super hot chick at the bar and then using cheesy pickup lines, why don't you seek out people who share your same interests, even if they don't seem like "your type". Most times you'll find their company vastly more enjoyable than the hot bar chick and you also won't have to pretend to be something you're not.

Appreciate the advice Man. Being from born and raised in L.A I admit to being a little superficial. A doctor here once stated "LA is a bunch of sevens, trying to be tens, chasing elevens". The potential rapist thing is because I work in academia and there is a lot of awareness emails that go to my email and mandatory orientation, etc. Just gets to be a bit much. I mean every boy got the raping is wrong talk when we were 13 right,?

lmao buddy it probably has more to do with the "potential rapist" thing

Well, there is that.

If anyone else was curious what SMV means in this comment it seems to be Sexual Market Value.

It’s a term used amongst red pill/incel and such communities.

> red pill / incel

incel = Involuntarily Celibate.

What's red pill?

Also, how does the 'Nu male' relates to, or is different from an incel dude?

My sense is that incels are red pilled and nu males aren't. So they might be similar in that they both fail to live up to a certain image of masculinity, but incels view that as a problem (or, at least, a hindrance) whereas nu males don't.

Red Pill comes from a famous late 90’s Sci Fi movie called The Matrix. The main characters world is not exactly what it appears to be at first and he is offered a choice of the red pill which would show him the truth or the blue pill that would keep him living the lie.

It has since been picked up by many communities as a way of saying they are ‘woke’ to the truth. It is currently in widespread use amongst the community of the subreddit The Donald by people claiming to have woken up from the liberal agenda or something along those lines.

In this context it probably refers to an infamous subreddit called the_red_pill that was a cess pool of pick up artists essentially training each other on how to hurt abuse and/or use women. It was banned sometime ago, during the Ellen Pao era I think. I believe they used it in the context of being woken up from the ‘lies’ of treating women as normal human beings if you want to find a lover.

Never hear of Nu Male, sounds like 4chan to me.

FWIW, r/TheRedPill definitely still exists.

The pick up artist community seems fairly toxic..

Because of what it is inherently or bad actors soiling it for everyone else?

Like all fringe, alternative movements, there are elements of truth and arguably good stuff (helping men gain confidence and be more sociable, teaching them how to clean up and become generally more attractive) mixed in with a lot of bad stuff (the mind games that are not only misogynist but downright misanthropic and mechanical, the cultlike dynamics that come with being in an alternative fringe community that claims to know the one true way to do something). In a healthier society there would be better, less controversial approaches to help men and boys gain the sort of benefits they seek from PUA and these subcultures.

It's both. Inherently bad and bad actors promoting it in bad faith.

PUA in a nutshell is lying to women, degrading them etc in a way to manipulate someone into a relationship. It is toxic to the core.

Interesting. This has me wondering about something:

I'm no incel or whatever, I'm also not particularly focused on a relationship (or sex, although there is a non-committed person in my life I see with regularity for both the casual romp and coffee dates to just sit and enjoy company), in married to the degree but I'm curious what you think: is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA? I'm someone who enjoys flirting and playful banter but have learned to have tempered expectations.

Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved. Be it "oh yeah I love sushi" (when you're really just passive about it) or "I drive a fancy car I can give you all the things" (when you're really leasing a slightly less than luxury sedan).

Just curious what your thoughts are

> Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved.

I tried that for the longest time and it was exhausting and unfruitful. When I relented and simply focused on meeting as many women as I could - and having the patience for a natural attraction to occur - it made a big difference. It sounds a bit Zen but when I stopped trying to "score" it seemed much easier to meet plenty of interesting women.

There is a way to do this without being toxic. If you are harming the other person, making them feel less so you feel more powerful, then it is a problem.

I am able to flirt with a woman without making them feel less so I don't know how to answer your question beyond that.

While I can certainly appreciate the response there, it isn't quite what I'm asking:

is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA?

Not asking if it's merely possible to court/flirt without being toxic (because of course there is, absolutely, I agree). I pose the question the way I have because I have yet to be wholly convinced that PUA is inherently toxic, and we aren't allowing the manifestation of bad actors to paint a view of enjoying the transactional nature of flirting to the point of finding ways to make it more engaging than simply engaging in small-talk/banter/exchanging statements back and forth at each other about life, the universe and etcetera-and subsequently-wanting to find ways of improving how you go about courting relationships.

tl;dr - "hate the player, not the game", etc.

> I avoid Vox articles due to the unsubtle feminist ideologies

> (...) recent cringe Vox interview with Jordan Peterson that kept trying put words in his mouth

> (...) I see no future for myself outside of being someone's mortgage hound or alimony sugar daddy.

That escalated quickly!

I feel this too. Most of my cis male friends won't date people that will make less money than them. I know I won't.

Is your intention to have a partner that walks in lockstep through career paths over the course of a long career?

How do you intend to deal with illness, career changes & family raising?

I think lower earning person can make up by doing extra chores and house work. That's what I do now. Not sure how fair that is but I think it's fair.

Yup. Most men will actually marry down economically, but women generally marry up economically. Perhaps when this is finally noticed, men will only marry their equals. With women graduating college at higher rates, perhaps this changes?

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/marrying-down-why-men-are-the...

My wife prefers a career working with autistic children, and earns much less than I do as a software developer because of that preference. She is amazing and I want to enable her to do whatever she is happiest doing using the money I am fortunate to be earning, as much as she is willing to let me help. You're looking at other human beings as merely economic objects and that's not going to net you happiness long-term. Consider each human you meet on the merits of their character, not their wallets...

This thread is ridiculous. Come back to earth, get out and meet real people.

> You're looking at other human beings as merely economic objects

I don't mean to be offensive but don't you think she considered your earning potential while choosing you as her husband?

There is nothing wrong with doing it, ppl have beeen doing it forever. Nothing immoral about it. It does go into the equation.

My wife cares very little about money. She developed her own methods for getting the most out of life without it, and is always suggesting that I spend less of it. I've been able to show her the benefits of having extra money and she's been able to show me how to live well frugally (not that I'm a big spender in the first place).

Thats awesome man!. Congrats on finding a good mate.

> Most men will actually marry down economically, but women generally marry up economically.

If the first phrase is true, then the second must also be.

Of course we're conflating income with wealth (or 'economical value'), which may be fraught.

> Perhaps when this is finally noticed, men will only marry their equals.

I think asking all men to think the way you think is going to be disappointing.

I also think that proposing the evaluation of people based on income and/or economic potential is breathtakingly depressing.

I notice that a lot of your comments are declared as absolute truths, often applying to large demographics, without much to back those claims up.

It feels like you've got strong opinions (that's perfectly okay!) and think your view of the world is shared by many / most other people (this, not so much).

I read a lot of studies and listen to political scientist lectures who draw the same conclusions that I do (Charles Murray. Victor David Hanson). Most times, I am too lazy to link to the case studies or books that discuss my points. Guilty as charged for having strong opinions; however, when I try to discuss them I am attacked, vilified and down voted into oblivion. Do this often enough and you will start to get resentful and seek like minded individuals who think the same way. Then bam, you are trapped in your own ideological echo chamber. I recognize this and am trying to grow beyond that. J Peterson lectures on maps of meaning, actually helped me realize this and I now see that it goes both ways. Growing up, my peers and elders told me I was very intelligent and had enormous potential. If I had not able to out think my frustration and anger, then perhaps I would have been one of these incel mass shooters when I was a young teen. That same rage and frustration I was able to overcome, I see it prevalent in many young men and women. People often tell me I am insightful and have future vision at times, so my concern for humanity and our collective future often leads me to ranting like a cranky old curmudgeon with anonymous throwaway accounts. This is one of few available outlets to vent and express myself.

Self expression is all well and good, but when participating in a discussion, we'd all be much better served if you didn't hurl offensive and ungrounded insults at large segments of the population. Curmudgeonly is one way to put it; immature and ignorant is another.

thanks.

Thank you for your very candid response.

I trust that you'll take my comments in good faith.

Smart people often tend to assume extremes of the people they're talking to - either that they're very smart, like themselves, or very dumb. Naturally, there's a spectrum.

Having strong opinions, as you note, can sometimes put people off -- but you say that when you try to discuss them you feel attacked. I felt from your comments in this thread that you weren't here to discuss [your opinions]. I may be misinterpreting, of course, and it'd be up to you to decide if this, and other exchanges are going as you'd expected.

I appreciate the appeal of like-minded individuals -- though I've yet to find any : ) -- and I'm cheered to see that you're wary of the echo chamber risk. If it's a genuine concern, rather than hyperbole, that it may (have) led to some extreme anti-social / violent incidents, then I'd strongly and seriously encourage you to talk to people more experienced than randos on HN.

I'm pretty familiar with Murray but you seem to be taking some of his claims and making them a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Aim higher.

Thanks for the insight, was not trying to do that, but in review I certainly did. Always trying to aim higher. Can you recommend any good political science or demographic books beside from author William Strauss? My intention is really to understand to understand the chaos around me. Forgive me for coming off steamed, but as I was an orphan as a child and was a ward of the court until I was emancipated at age 18. State Bureaucracies, Social trends, Demographics, Poverty and Education were elements that shaped my life and continue to fascinate me and instill a desire to seek answers. truly being genuine here.

I would recommend learning more about the things you hate.

I used to hate modern art. I thought it was only for obnoxious people. Then I decided to take a college course on it and it's my favorite period of art because I learned to understand it. For the same reasons, I decided to take a course on the black power movement. My parents were racist so I was probably racist so I wanted to learn more. I learned about the Civil rights movement and discovered many personal heroes. I used to dislike John McCain and politics even though I knew very little about either, until I saw a documentary about McCain and learned he was literally a hero. I used to think finance, statistics, and programming were for smart people unlike me, until I learned more and developed a love for it.

I used to think the red pill was complete trash until someone forced me to watch the red pill documentary. It led to a painful breakup where we both weren't able to empathize with each other's traumas. I could not empathize with his pain of feeling inferior (because that's my status quo) and he could not empathize with the systemic oppression and violence against women (physical, sexual, and emotional). I feel he felt that his father may have been taken advantage of, abused and used financially and feared that for himself. While I watched my father abuse my mother, emotionally and financially, and feared that for myself. It was strange how we both felt strongly about both sides, the same problem, except we were passionately divided simply because of gender. I learned a lot and probably will always be learning from that experience.

Every time I've challenged my views, I've been rewarded.

Two books I've enjoyed or am enjoying that are about chaos:

Evicted by Mathew Desmond covers American poverty from a housing perspective.

The Big Short covers the 2008 financial crisis and it's much more informative than the film.

You make some great points. thanks.

lol the awesome thing about incels is they make it immediately obvious to everyone as to why they've been unsuccessful at finding a partner because of their revolting personalities

>The traditional routes and social contract are broken.

There is definitely some truth here. Can you find a partner and/or community of people who share your understanding of the traditional social expectations?

PUA is a community of sorts, but also has core beliefs so inimical to the opposite sex that it doesn't seem very sustainable.

> Perhaps turning men into non toxic soy boys who salivate at being feminist activists will turn America into utopia for all.

You don't deserve to be part of this discussion throwing around these phrases. This is why you are being downvoted.

You contribute no value. You make the conversation worse through your participation.

I was being a dick there, I admit it. Just a subject that I am passionate about. But the thread did spiral into something else. Sometimes you just throw shit and see what sticks.

Sometimes you do, but please resist the temptation to do it here. We're trying for a higher quality of discussion than is prevalent on the rest of the internet, and for that to work, we need users like you on board.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am going to give some unsolicited advice to you:

Do not fall into the incel trap. Do not start hating women.

Hate society if you want, understand that due to your perspective as a guy, you will fixate on what is wrong with women but what is wrong with women is what is wrong with society at large, the bias of your perspective aside.

Focus on yourself, toughen up and learn to accept rejection and just meet as many women as you can. That is the only path to success. Do you think those bitter incels are celebrating their misogyny? Sure, but only through their tears.

That life is not worth it. It is harder to build yourself up than tear other people down but more worthwhile.

Hey, I'm not a soy boy, I'm a soy man, and I'm up to my eyeballs in cute, fun, financially self-sufficient women.

Shame they show so much interest when you're engaged to another cute, fun, actualized lady, eh?? Sorry, to use the jargon you might understand....cute, fun, actualized female.

Careful, or he'll be so triggered he accuses you of virtue-signalling.

That's okay, I'm in my safe space.