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Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by nacho2sweet on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:44PM (#17138084)
Fentanyl is a huge problem in Vancouver, where we are usually ground zero for all new opiate trends. Besides killing over 1100 people a year in BC, the money also seeps back into our overheated real-estate market through casino money laundering. It is a crazy cycle. I have no idea why world governments and our own don't say and do more against China. Spineless.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by smallnamespace on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:57PM (#17138204)
This is the downside of having global economic integration (buy anything from anywhere for the cost of USPS shipping) without political integration. It's the same type of problem as Greek debtors vs. German creditors except in a different context.

Fentanyl analogues are not a problem in China, hence the relative slowness in cracking down on them.

The supplier is in China, but the buyer is the West. Why does moral culpability only fall on one party?

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by Koshkin on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:30PM (#17138997)
Well, who was to blame for the 19th century Opium Wars? The Chinese?
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by nimrod0 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:46PM (#17139150)
The Opium Wars began when the Chinese confiscated the British drug contraband (but property to the British) and lit a bonfire with them, as the opium trade was illegal. There is no comparison.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by phlakaton on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:55PM (#17139200)
That was certainly how the British saw it: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lord_Palmerston_to_the_Minist...
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by smallnamespace on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:21PM (#17139765)
I think there is an important difference between trade being forced open at gunpoint, vs. trade deals peacefully negotiated.

What's more interesting though is the inherent impedance mismatch between money and goods (which are highly mobile and flow everywhere) and people and laws (which are much less so).

The crux of the problem is Americans are negatively affected by things that China sells. But what is the remedy?

Should China's government take American citizens' interests directly into account when making its laws? Is that a reciprocal obligation? How far does it extend?

How is it different from the current scenario, where presumably the US State Department identifies the harm, brings it up with China, and negotiates a change to Chinese laws? Should there be a bureaucratic mechanism with quicker feedback? Would that lead to an inevitable loss of effective sovereignty for nations?

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by toomanybeersies on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:31PM (#17140224)
I'm not sure what you're angling at with this weird historical whataboutism.

Are you saying that it's acceptable for Chinese companies and gangs to manufacture opiates and ship them off to the USA because Britain and the USA went to war with China 150 years ago to enforce the opium trade?

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by DmenshunlAnlsis on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:30PM (#17138512)
Fentanyl analogues are not a problem in China, hence the relative slowness in cracking down on them.

History suggests they will be. China happily exported and exports Ketamine, and are now dealing with a massive problem of heavy Ketamine addicts. It’s gotten so bad that they’ve lobbied internationally to sanction ketamine, which ran into a brick wall for good reasons.1

1 Ketamine is the only general anesthetic that doesn’t require loads of training and respiratory support to use, and as such is on the WHO lost of essentials.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by atomical on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:27PM (#17138981)
Ketamine has potential as a novel treatment for depression.

It's not as addictive as some people would suggest. I have a prescription and it makes me sweat profusely and puke. Hardly enjoyable and I have no interest in dissociation because I want to live in the present.

Making Ketamine harder for patients to access is going to destroy a lot of lives. People with depression like myself are already being taken advantage of by Ketamine infusion clinics that charge exorbitant rates. These doctors, often not psychiatrists, could prescribe a lozenge for their patients to take at home if they were serious about helping depressed patients and not lining their pockets.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by DmenshunlAnlsis on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:39PM (#17139897)
Making Ketamine harder for patients to access is going to destroy a lot of lives.

Even putting aside its use as a treatment for depression, restricting Ketamine was deemed unacceptable by the WHO, so don’t worry. It’s really really the only thing going if you need to intervene surgically and don’t have an OR.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by madengr on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:15PM (#17140109)
“Fentanyl analogues are not a problem in China, hence the relative slowness in cracking down on them.”

Probably because it’s the death sentence.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by swerveonem on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:30AM (#17144299)
Would you know if fentanyl abuse was a problem in China? With a billion people and all humans being human it's hard to imagine there is not a large sub culture of opiate and fentanyl abuse. Where would we get some quality statistics on the topic?
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by dredmorbius on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:21PM (#17140159)
#GreshamsLaw
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by Fricken on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:37PM (#17139071)
Any supplier thinking long-term I'm sure will recognize the economic downside of killing off their clientele. It's in their interests to self-regulate and enforce stricter quality control standards to mitigate fatal overdoses.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by bigiain on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:15PM (#17139728)
The tobacco industry and car industry are both counter examples to this.

There are real use cases for fentanyl (there's a report here locally of ambulance crews misappropriating fentanyl from the pain medication supplies.) I know there's media reports of "an opioid epidemic", but I'm suspicious about how much that's "real" and how much of it is "war on drugs" reporting pushed by law enforcement PR for the purposes of propping up the prison-industrial complex...

30,000 deaths per year in the US seems to be considered "acceptable" in the face of the benefits of 200-ish million people owning/driving cars. I wonder what the ratio of "people benefiting" vs "people dying" from opiates and fentanyl in particular is?

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by leetcrew on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:04PM (#17139255)
> Any supplier thinking long-term I'm sure will recognize the economic downside of killing off their clientele

maybe, maybe not. often when someone overdoses, the dealer has customers lined up around the block the next day. addicts don't know whether that particular stuff was cut with fent or just stronger than usual, and they don't particularly care.

even if enough people were dying that it made a significant dent in sales, i doubt it would change anything for the suppliers. selling fentanyl as heroin is massively more profitable than just selling heroin, and there's no way to do it safely. low doses of heroin are in the tens of milligrams, while fentanyl can have a potent effect at doses less than one milligram. this makes it really hard to achieve a homogenous mixture; there's basically always going to be some potentially lethal hotspots.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by mabbo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:44PM (#17139141)
> the money also seeps back into our overheated real-estate market through casino money laundering

That's actually not likely how they launder the money. Money laundering regulations in Canada say that large sums of money cashed out an casinos are reported to Fintrac[0], who datamine and analyze that stuff pretty extensively. My knowledge of their capabilities is over a decade old (internship way back), but even then they would catch on if you were moving millions of dollars per year through a casino.

Your bank also reports any large transactions or international money transfers- anything over $10k, and that number doesn't adjust with inflation afaik. They have a lot of data and they have built some pretty big cases out of it.

[0]http://www.fintrac-canafe.gc.ca/re-ed/casinos-eng.asp

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by nacho2sweet on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:51PM (#17139184)
Where you been dude. FINTRAC don't do shit. https://globalnews.ca/news/4149818/vancouver-cautionary-tale...
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by mabbo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:14PM (#17139348)
Well shit. Time to update our relations. O_O
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by cat199 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:03PM (#17139657)
> large sums of money cashed out an casinos

cashed out?

that's not how you do it. it's about a corrupt casino funnelling the money in and pretending it is gambling earnings..

see also: the movie 'casino' (unsurprisingly)

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by nacho2sweet on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:04PM (#17146035)
When you return the chips it is called "cashing out". The casino doesn't let you buy in with a duffle bag of $250,000 and cash out for a cheque from the casino for $250,000 in the same transaction. You have to go play a low variance game like Baccarat and play your money through like 200%. Then you cash out $240,000 and get a cheque from the casino that you can easily deposit into a Canadian bank. Gambling winnings in Canada are also tax free.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by civilian on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:19PM (#17138406)
Hey, here's a crazy thought. Why don't we end the drug war? Then people can easily get safe drugs with accurate dosages.

The deaths, money laundering. They're not symptoms of drug dealers, they're symptoms of the drug war. We should clean it up, but it's naive to think that we should just "fight the drug war harder".

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by andrei_says_ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:00PM (#17138753)
Hey why don’t we change a few laws and eliminate a few huge government agencies, eliminate the government’s excuse to surveil everyone and the ability to persecute and jail millions of people at will, eliminate the incredibly profitable business of private prisons and eliminate the easy money streams which inevitably end up wetting the pockets of government officials on all levels.

This is a lot of power to give up.

The people whose jobs benefit from prohibition have a lot of say in this matter and they don’t look eager to unemploy themselves.

I think ending the war needs to come with viable solutions for them.

We can see that cannabis prohibition is slowly ending. I’m curious how will the prohibition industrial complex adjust.

Remember how the DEA keeps testifying about cannabis totally deserving a schedule 1 status? (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.entrepreneur.com/amphtml/31...)

They’re basically answering the question “do you want to stay employed?”

And the answer is “yes, absolutely, without a doubt.”

Similarly, we can’t go to Saudi Arabia/Canada/Russia/Us etc. and say “Hey, let’s stop extracting oil. It’s not good for the environment. Yes, it’s free money for you, but we want you to stop.”

Except that hopefully oil is getting less profitable. Drug prohibition will always be.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by cc439 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:11PM (#17140463)
The Opioid/Opiate epidemic is the direct result of highly available, high quality, legal opioids. For the majority of places (i.e. anywhere that isn't a a top 10 city or former, now desitute, trade capital with a port like Baltimore) currently in the grasp of this crisis, it all began with the introduction of pharma-industry darlings like oxycontin and other branded opioids.

Not only were opioids massively overprescribed for otherwise legitimate purposes, once hooked, anyone could walk into one of several "Pain Clinics" located within a few miles of any population center and get a scrip for a pharma quality fix covered almost entirely by their insurance. Even without insurance, the scrip for a 3 month supply of Lortab I received after an emergency appendectomy was just $100 back in 2009 (thanks to manifacturer rebates!). That's a week's fix for any burgeoning pill junkie willing to do cold water extraction (to remove the acetaminophen) and all for a relative pittance.

Allowing mass quantities of high quality opioids onto the market is what caused this issue in the first place. Removing even more barriers to access isn't going to make things any better. In fact, it's guaranteed to make things worse based on the results so far.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by vis52 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:30PM (#17138506)
That's exactly what they did in Portugal and the results have been nothing short of amazing.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by paulcole on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:45PM (#17138635)
Have you ever thought about writing headlines for Buzzfeed?

Edit: I meant that as a compliment.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by AzzieElbab on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:57PM (#17138206)
the word you are looking for is corrupt. In some cases indirectly. So many Canadians have all their savings tided up in their homes, the government cannot risk taking drastic steps that might crash the housing market
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by qop on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:13PM (#17139718)
Could it be trillions in debts?

Could it be they are aligned with developing countries all over the world with belt and road?

Could it be that they have arguably the single most intelligent population in the world?

Could it be that though Americans (that includes you canadians, continent-shamers) find their lack of democracy disturbing, Chinese citizens have generally not complained about the past several millennium of rather tyrannical, centralized governance?

What a head scratcher... Why, it's almost like they're different people!

Edit: oh by the way, there's literally a billion of them

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by MajorSauce on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:21PM (#17139763)
Canadians, continent-shamers?

Please elaborate.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by qop on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:19PM (#17140140)
Twas tongue in cheek. No harm intended, I love my estranged moose cousins
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by vis52 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:56PM (#17138191)
When did this start in Vancouver?

I am actually surprised that something like this happens in Canada, usually seems that news report these sorts of "epidemics" mostly from the US.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by nacho2sweet on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:03PM (#17138267)
Vancouver has been addicted to heroin and opiates my whole life, we had a nice flirt with meth in the late 90s early 00's (good frontline on its west coast spread). East Hastings is ground zero. We used to have the highest concentration of AIDS in North America because of needle sharing. Combination of being a main pacific-rim port, mild weather, aboriginal poverty etc. Lots of people are blown away when they get here and see it.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:04PM (#17138793)
Vancouver has always been like that. When people talk about drugs and homeless in the streets, Vancouver comes off as even worse than Seattle in many respects.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by teunispeters on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:58PM (#17139221)
maybe around when the first logging camps were set up in the early 1800s? It's been here longer than any of the cities have been. Oh, opium and addiction that is. The term "skid row" is said to originate here or Seattle - both have good claim to the term with similar history.

Fentanyl has been here for a long time, but it started getting mass imported a few years ago into drug rules and may be connected to why Canada's legalizing pot now. The death rates keep rising.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by selectodude on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:00PM (#17138239)
Downtown Eastside has been what seems the heroin center of North America since the early 1980s, well before it spiraled out of control south of the border.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by munchhausen on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:33AM (#17141553)
Why do you bring "world governments" into it? Most of the world has next to no problem with fentanyl. Why, then, is "most of the world" supposed to "do more against" China?

The problems that the US and Canada have with opioids are of their own making, and that's also where they should look for a solution to these problems.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by msie on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:41PM (#17139908)
The local media likes to tie the opioid epidemic, money laundering, real estate prices and foreign ownership into one neat tidy narrative. I don't think it's that simple.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by oh-kumudo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:56PM (#17138729)
But China has THE strictest drug law anywhere on the planet. China doesn't consume those drugs, it is because there is a market so they are creating those drugs. Why didn't Canadian government just ban it? Put those dealers into jail and grab their profit? Stricter law enforcement works.
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by GW150914 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:02PM (#17138774)
Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by oh-kumudo on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:09PM (#17138830)
> The numbers have only continued to grow since then. In January, Xinhua reported that China handled 52,800 drug cases from late September to December 2014 alone

This is probably including Marijuana uses as well, which is already legalized in much part of West. It is the not on the same ground sadly, so I don't think it is nonsense.

Re:Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kin... by GW150914 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:11PM (#17138847)
I won’t even get into how you’re contradicting your first point about “strictest laws” and just quote from the first article.

It’s apparently spreading north as well – northeastern province Liaoning has been a “major growth area” for drug cases over the past few years, Ma said. Outside analysts believe that North Korea (which borders Liaoning) has become a major source of methamphetamine smuggled into China, although Beijing is reluctant to publicly point the finger at its ally.

So, not pot.