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Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by twblalock on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:30PM (#17087595)
Unfortunately it seems so far that voters in California are reacting to the problem by supporting more of the policies that caused the problem in the first place, e.g. rent control, opposing new market-rate housing, etc. It's pretty easy for politicians to sell those bad solutions, which is why we ended up with them in the first place.

I doubt the YIMBY movement is going to solve the problem, because they have alienated many lower-income voters.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by majos on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:40PM (#17087651)
The amount of popular support for rent control depresses me in the same way that the popularity of lottery tickets does. People in general seem to have an endless capacity to believe that the rare, improbable, valuable opportunity will go to them.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by majormajor on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:47PM (#17087685)
Rent control to reduce uncertainty for people already living there isn't a lottery odds thing - it's not a solution to the problem of hard to find new places, it's a solution to the problem of getting priced out by external forces.

It has side effects, but is also addressing a specific problem people want to handle that isn't necessarily fixed by "just build a bunch of new market-rate housing."

Weakening rent control in the 90s in CA didn't prevent the current homelessness problems, so I have some skepticism around taking that even further. Pushing people who could afford marginal housing into no longer being able to afford it seems like a bang-up way to increase homelessness.

Part of the root of the problem seems to be cities that trying to both avoid densifying but also increase commercial and office space and occupancy and jobs. Either policy would be fine by itself, but they explode when put together. Some cities are slowly starting to realize this, but saying "we don't need a constant economic growth rate of X% if we don't want the feel of our city to change" may not be an easy choice for politicians to sell.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by nerfhammer on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:17PM (#17087866)
It's a lottery in that if you are lucky enough to have a certain kind of lease already you deserve to get cheap rent for life but not if you don't already have a certain kind of lease. It's not something you qualify for by falling into a condition where you need it or it stops when/if you no longer need it. I know plenty of people that became quite wealthy and of course still get rent control.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by majos on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:59PM (#17087753)
Good point. I was thinking of this from the perspective of people who can't afford to live in place x, not people trying to avoid being forced out of place x by rising rents.

I'm not well-versed in the state of rent control in CA, but I am seeing more rent control put forth as a viable alternative to just building more residences. That strikes me as a bad idea.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by roenxi on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:16PM (#17087861)
> It has side effects, but is also addressing a specific problem people want to handle that isn't necessarily fixed by "just build a bunch of new market-rate housing."

It is a sad fact of life that the best outcome for everybody is to let the economically productive take first pick of any available resources; because they will by definition take them and turn them into more resources.

This idea that someone has a right to live somewhere because they were there first is not unreasonable, but the path of least suffering is that people pay the market price for rent.

There needs to be pretty overwhelming evidence that the problem is with what consenting adults agree to rather than the government being unreasonable with the rules on constructing new building. I'd bet that the US hasn't reached that threshold yet.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by Chinjut on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:29PM (#17087942)
It is very much not a "by definition" truth that the people who, say, happened to snag nice tech industry salaries for their coding abilities (or their visionary decision to process credit card transactions online, or whatever their particular thing is...) will be more "productive" and make more "resources" out of having a house than people who happen to have lower salaries.

This is just self-aggrandizing "The folks life has already financially favored deserve every continued advantage over everyone else because they are so smart and talented and God's chosen ones" market-over-everything nonsense.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by pjmorris on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:51PM (#17088070)
> It is a sad fact of life that the best outcome for everybody is to let the economically productive take first pick of any available resources;

Which is to say that the people who create money (what's more economically productive than willing money into existence?) via issuing credit (banks) or borrowing on the US's account (the Fed) will have first pick of available resources.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by majormajor on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:23PM (#17087907)
Why does the market price in one city need to be several times higher than in another? Why do so many of the high-paying tech jobs need to be concentrated on the west coast instead of more distributed? Are the benefits of that concentration truly higher, and truly purely rational "path of least suffering," in order to justify all the costs of it?

You also make an distinction between what consenting adults agree to in contracts and what those same consenting adults do in local governance and regulation. But why wouldn't they have the right to say "we don't want buildings over three stories here," say? Why is that necessarily "unreasonable" yet a landlord deciding to raise someone's rent 40% wouldn't be?

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by twoodfin on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:46PM (#17088039)
“They” don’t own the buildings, but the landlord owns his. If no one wants to pay an additional 40%, he gets to pound sand.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by zamazingo on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:25PM (#17087916)
> It is a sad fact of life that the best outcome for everybody is to let the economically productive take first pick of any available resources

That is not a fact of life, it is simply a hypocritical way of legitimizing monopolistic advantage. What one defines as economically productive will unequivocally align with the groups one favors over others.

Power is not natural, it is created and reproduced, and naturalized beyond the realm of critical thought by false claims to the facts of Life.

Does life really as facts? Which life?

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by closeparen on Thursday May 17, 2018 @01:11AM (#17088891)
“Economically productive” isn’t a subjective interpretation. It’s what produces the most money. In a society we tax productivity and use the revenue collected to run services that lift up those at the bottom. More money is available for redistribution when we are collectively more productive. Suppressing productivity in the name of fairness is highly satisfying to a large contingent of politically active folks who are passionate about it, but better outcomes can usually be purchased with the tax revenue it brings.

Case in point: neighborhoods that are proud of themselves for thwarting evil developers in the name of affordability end up with fewer affordable units, because we fund affordable units as a percentage of total construction.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by pas on Thursday May 17, 2018 @03:57AM (#17089593)
Don't forget to price in, account for, factor in, and otherwise adjust the numbers to match externalities, other market irrationalities, sesonalities, etc.

For example, if SF wants to solve housing (providing shelter) by municipally mandated equality between purchasing power of people, this has a certain cost, and this has a certain appeal for some residents. Would they pay more taxes to get council erected units for the less fortunate? Maybe. So these preferences have to be calculated and priced.

Sure, the market would get the most new units online in a given time, which would result in prices falling. But it seems like SF wants an apmost centrally planned solution.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by kei929 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @10:31AM (#17091522)
Which these days means mostly ephemeral resources.

They save the tax cut and buy back stocks.

They are not starting farms to create more food or building new kinds of companies — not doing economic net new things. They’re growing their own ephemeral wealth pile

The old ways, best ideas, they have all died out in human society. No longer do we worship Roman Gods and build pyramids for Pharaohs

It’s hubris and and vanity to think we have the iron clad solution today in our time

We’re just carrying water for dead and selfish

Consenting adults who have been told this is exactly right their entire lives by government backed research into propaganda models gifted to university and media and advertising will I’m sure magically come to their senses

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by scarmig on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:59PM (#17087755)
Rent control isn't the fundamental cause of high housing costs: it's mostly a matter of supply and demand. And, yes, rent control limits supply a bit, but nowhere near as much as complicated, arcane, and expensive building and zoning codes.

Given the trade offs, the only reforms I'd make to rent control is having some kind of gradual income requirements. The higher your income, the less rent control you get, up to the point (say, $100k+) where you aren't protected by it at all. Even that is mostly for optics, though, and wouldn't help housing costs too much.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by majos on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:02PM (#17087782)
Agreed, but my primary bone to pick here is that people seem to be proposing further rent control as a viable solution to the housing problem, rather than fixing existing restrictive building codes.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by closeparen on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:15PM (#17087853)
Further rent control is a viable solution to the problem of existing residents being displaced. It isn’t a solution to the difficulty of moving to desirable areas, but rent control advocates don’t consider that a legitimate problem. Or at least are okay with dampening the upward mobility of already affluent creative-class types to protect marginalized communities.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by nerfhammer on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:43PM (#17088030)
Notice how the possibility that actually non-affluent people would move somewhere for a better job is not something they think about.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by jhall1468 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @10:37PM (#17088290)
Nope, that's because rent control makes that problem worse, so it's best to ignore it.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by scarmig on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:08PM (#17087813)
Hahah. Well, if rent control's high level of support raises your blood pressure, wait till I tell you about San Francisco's popular BMR lottery... ;)
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by closeparen on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:22PM (#17087903)
A low-income applicant has a nonzero chance in a BMR lottery, which is better than their 0% chance in a market-rate building. There is a logic to it. Unfortunately the thinking usually stops there, rather than considering how to raise the chances overall.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by chrischen on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:07PM (#17087812)
According to this article:

> The urban design think tank SPUR estimated in 2014 that San Francisco had “roughly 172,000 units of rent controlled housing” at the time, about 45 percent of the city’s entire housing stock.

https://sf.curbed.com/2017/11/3/16603900/rent-control-san-fr...

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by scarmig on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:09PM (#17087825)
It's not reasonable to consider all rent-controlled housing off the market, however. Most don't have tenants pay a rent substantially diverging from market rent. People constantly move, even if they are in a rent controlled apartment.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by mikeyouse on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:13PM (#17087844)
To wit, I'm "Rent Controlled" in SF, but since I moved apartments last year, my rent is controlled to something north of $3k/month. I've had several other friends move recently from and to other Rent Controlled units. Saying a large swath of the city is rent controlled isn't very informative without actual rent data.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by Lazare on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:19PM (#17087881)
The the extent rent control has an impact, it'll be negative. If rent control with serious teeth was ever passed, it would become a fundamental cause of high housing costs (or other, worse issues, depending on how it's implemented)! And I think in specific markets (San Francisco in particular) it may have more of an impact that you realise.

But you're right that the issue now is zoning and building codes of course.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by ryankupyn on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:08PM (#17087815)
The real risk there is that it would incentivize landlords to select the highest-income tenants possible (more so than they currently do).
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by scarmig on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:12PM (#17087842)
Good point. Existing residents needing rent control, however, would get to maintain their protections. And I see the policy argument for maintaining their protections being much stronger than a generalized right to the same rent.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by nerfhammer on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:09PM (#17087819)
This is called a means test. Strangely enough rent control schemes virtually never come with a means test.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by Ar-Curunir on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:04PM (#17087791)
The problem isn't with rent control, it's wit rich folks opposing new construction because of various flimsy reasons.

Where do you think new housing has come up most in the Bay Area? Poor neighborhoods with lots of rent control, or rich neighbourhoods?

(Hint: you don't hear about gentrification issues in rich parts of the bay area because nobody can build new things there)

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by ericmcer on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:02PM (#17087777)
I feel like its a branding issue. "Rent Control" sounds good, I don't think people consider it beyond the initial feeling the words imbue. It is also weird that young people are generally in favor of rent control even though they move frequently and it is just another wealth transfer from the young to the old.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by damnyou on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:56PM (#17087742)
(to be sure, the most insidious form of rent control in California is Prop 13)
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by abalone on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:25PM (#17087917)
> I doubt the YIMBY movement is going to solve the problem, because they have alienated many lower-income voters.

I think you're right and part of the problem is reflected in your comment. YIMBYs are supremely confident in its diagnosis of the complex housing problem: it's rent control and other impediments to the free market. They are so confident that it's literally at the level of flipping the bozo bit[1] on low-income and minority housing activists and attempting to speak on their behalf. They think the answer is so obvious that to think otherwise means you're being manipulated by rich white NIMBY homeowners.

That's understandably a bit insulting. It's led longtime housing activists to note that YIMBY has a "white privilege problem... They don't understand poverty."[2]

Meanwhile housing activists are saying things like, hey, maybe it has something to do with, I dunno, massively defunding the major force in constructing affordable housing for the poor and working class (HUD)?[3] Perhaps the income disparity is so great between low-income renters and tech workers that there is a wee bit of understandable skepticism that market-rate development alone will bring down the market price to something the working poor can afford?

YIMBYs need to do a better job of listening to and understanding the legitimate concerns from these communities if they want to be successful -- not attempt to talk over them (literally[4]) or rush through legislation that gets patched up later after protest.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_bit

[2] http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-housing-bill-failu...

[3] http://www.sfweekly.com/news/the-great-eliminator-how-ronald...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrVEYKVtfU

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by epistasis on Thursday May 17, 2018 @03:38PM (#17094747)
> YIMBYs are supremely confident in its diagnosis of the complex housing problem: it's rent control and other impediments to the free market

YIMBYs do not have a position on rent control, because both sides are advocated for and debated.

The biggest problem with the YIMBY movement is people blindly accepting criticisms of YIMBY without bothering to investigate what YIMBY movements actually believe.

When there was a big panel discussion in my small Bay Area town last year, without a YIMBY member on the panel, the panel all concluded that YIMBYs oppose affordable housing. However, in this small town, the ONLY PEOPLE WHO SHOWED UP to advocate for recent affordable housing projects were YIMBY members. And it turns out that SB 35, the only YIMBY legislation I know about, is actually about building affordable housing.

So please stop reinforcing false beliefs.

YIMBYs do a great job of listening. They have changed their engagement in response to this. They are politically naive in that they believe they can advocate for ideas and trust that people will listen to them, instead of seeking out engagement of current power brokers first. And for example they didn't expect SB 827 to get the momentum that it got, perhaps not realizing that including transportation and basic good urban planning they will wake up a lot more people than with they did with the SB 35 affordable housing bill.

California politics is all about optics, unfortunately. At least, it is, until we stop letting that happen.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by ng12 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:32PM (#17087603)
> because they have alienated many lower-income voters.

How so?

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by twblalock on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:45PM (#17087672)
They think the YIMBYs are dismissing their concerns about gentrification and displacement. I'm not sure that's true, but either way, the YIMBY movement's image is of a bunch of affluent white tech workers who don't care about low-income, minority residents whose neighborhoods might get gentrified. That image will need to change if the YIMBYs want to succeed.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by wbl on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:47PM (#17087686)
Minorities in CA are more likely to support building more homes than whites.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by abalone on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:05PM (#17087794)
Yes but not necessarily market-rate developments that accelerate gentrification and displacement. BMR housing, for sure.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by hunter23 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:07PM (#17087811)
I don't know why you are being downvoted - SFgate recently published an article talking about Yimby members yelling over minority groups and those minority groups basically called Yimby a bunch of "affluent white tech workers".

So it's definitely a problem of Yimby not managing it's image and forming alliances well.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by ng12 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @02:06PM (#17093797)
I think anyone who's trying to shout down another group based on their race doesn't deserve to be allied with.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by hunter23 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:06PM (#17087797)
Because they don't have low income leaders in their organization and they've been dismissive of minority concerns. See: http://www.sfexaminer.com/sb-827-rallies-end-yimbys-shouting...

While I support the Yimby approach the truth is it is largely led by upper middle class white people. To get things done in politics, you don't to have the best argument, you need to have the best consensus of citizens and $$ supporting you. The yimby org doesn't realize this - they think they can steam roll over minority groups to get things done, but frankly they need to a better job building bridges with these groups. This is how politics work.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by smallnamespace on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:20PM (#17087891)
The fundamental interests of the various groups aren't necessarily fully aligned, are they?

E.g. it may be the case that rent control and other roadblocks increase the cost of housing in the long run (bad for anyone new moving to the Bay Area), but it certainly benefits the current occupants of rent-controlled housing.

That's one reason to be slightly skeptical of the label 'minority' organizations—it's unclear whether all minorities have the same interests at stake. In particular, minorities who currently live in below-market cost housing have markedly different expected payoff from a change in policy than minorities who currently live outside of the city.

Certainly, good politics and making nice can smooth over some amount of disagreement, but is there really a mechanism right now that could make everyone better off?

I, too, would like to live in a world where:

- Minorities and/or lower income people aren't priced out of the city

- ... and will have enough units to live in in the future

- and widespread construction so tech workers or other immigrants have cheaper rent

- the character of our neighborhoods aren't gentrified away

- and it isn't too expensive to build

...but experience as engineers tells us that there is always a compromise to be made when you ask for everything. The political fight here is who is will end up compromising, and how much.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by hunter23 on Thursday May 17, 2018 @12:18AM (#17088686)
I agree with everything you said. I also support the YIMBY solution (building more housing to drive down prices). However, my only point (which HN seems to downvote) is that the YIMBY party in San Francisco has an image / branding issue. They are perceived as being techies out of touch with lower income and minority groups. As you have rightly pointed out this is probably a flawed view, but it is a branding issue.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by cavisne on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:15PM (#17087854)
A hilariously biased article... how anyone could dream of linking that as a reference astounds me
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by brudgers on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:59PM (#17088105)
To me, expecting US housing markets facing affordability problems to build their way out of their affordability problems ignores the fact these markets are markets. And it ignores the timelines and investment goals of real estate investors.

Sure real-estate investors often complain about regulations. But those complaints are rooted in the effects of regulation on liquidity and profits, not on afforadability. Up market housing gets built because that's what people with money want [1] and where the net returns from developable parcels are often higher...commercial development has much higher potential returns still. That's why the big money like insurance reserves often prefers Class A office, retail, and industrial REIT's over single family or condominiums.

The big money in real-estate that drives markets is at a scale where affordable or even ordinary housing deals aren't big enough. The timelines of big real-estate money are often 30-50 years to match liabilities like life-insurance. The only part of the US housing market which comes close to that timeline is conventional 30 year mortgages. But at $100-200k per deal, it takes thousands of deals just to get $1 billion out the door. Then the thirty years is still just theory: there's refinancing and home sales making the practical investment turnover five or ten years (times thousands of investments).

Unaffordablility is a sign of high market demand where affordable housing is less preferred by investors than raw land or unredeveloped redevelopable property. Holding developable property means there's a real asset beneath the investment and the risk/reward can be spread across multiple economic cycles. Construction not only requires the injection of additional capital, but ties the risk/reward to a particular economic cycle. Again, it is worth keeping in mind that at the macro level the real-estate markets are largely driven by parked capital not borrowed money in the form of money. B2C isn't what drives real-estate markets over the long term.

The US housing market is driven by government intervention. FHA mortgages and the mortgage interest deduction are two easy examples. These exist because traditionally there has not been much incentive for the bulk of capital in the real-estate market to invest in houses for ordinary Americans. Historically, the sprawling checkerboard suburbs are largely the result of smaller ad hoc deals not the really big players. Though that's changing a bit, the involvement of the big players tends to encourage housing to move upscale and into multi-use developments with commercial and retail components..."the affordable lifestyle" doesn't look good on a sales brochure.

[1] Selling to people with money is a good sales strategy.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by closeparen on Thursday May 17, 2018 @04:15AM (#17089653)
San Francisco is essentially built out as far as zoning will allow. Attempts to fill in the gaps are frequently opposed and defeated in the community review proces. So I’m skeptical that there’s a lack of interest, but if you’re right, what’s the harm in zoning for more units anyway? If there’s truly no interest after the standard 700sqft “luxury apartment” falls to its Manhattan, Seattle, or Chicago price (all of which are a steal for SF), the only change has been on paper.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by brudgers on Thursday May 17, 2018 @08:55AM (#17090873)
Sorry for not being clear. The disinterest in "affordable" or "market rate" housing is by the entities with sufficient capital to influence the overall real estate market across economic cycles. To stay in San Francisco, Millennium Tower might illuminate my interpretation of the macro real-estate market because Millennium Tower actually got built, contains what seems like a meaningful number of units, and those units are luxury rather than market rate.

Millennium Partners [0] navigated San Francisco's notorious entitlement process. That's what they do as sophisticated developers. Part of that navigation (according to Wikipedia) was refusing to submit the project to peer review. In real-estate development terms, that usually means lawyering up and running rough-shod over city staff and usually garnering project support of line staff's political superiors. Better real-estate lawyers cost more money and city staff attempts to influence every real-estate development whether luxury or market rate (that's their job and why there is an entity called the "planning department"). The important point is there are a lot of fixed costs with real-estate development that only weakly correlate with project size. [1]

More importantly, the money behind Millennium Partners needs big expensive projects:

With these projects, Jeffries created a new investment vehicle to provide equity capital. The resulting financial structure included a consortium of German financial institutions including ERGO, Provinzial Wuerttembergische, AXA Colonia Immobilien AG, Energie Baden Wuerttemberg AG, as well as Goldman Sachs' Whitehall Fund and George Soros and his Quantum Realty Fund Limited. [2]

These are the interests that drive speculative real-estate development and speculative real-estate development is where most housing comes from these days, public housing is mostly done and dusted.

To put a finer point on the lack of deep market interest in building housing, consider Apple's new headquarters. Residential was never even on the table for the parcels Apple acquired from HP. No residential developer was going to outspend Apple for property adjacent to Apple's existing campus[3] and if one had, the housing would have had to have been luxury not market rate to make the numbers work. At the reported $3,000,000/acre, 20 dwellings/acre and 4:1 construction to land ratio each unit would be ~$750,000. Once you're at $750,000, there's no reason to cap unit mix at a 4:1 cost. That's just where they will start.

That brings us to risk. How quickly can Silicon Valley actually absorb 2000 $750,000+ units? What finances $1.5+ billion+ of residential development? Not today. Back in 2010 when housing prices were falling and financial markets were still unsteady. Apple was able to purchase because it had a pile of cash. Residential developers didn't.

The only people Apple was competing with were institutions interested in parking money in real-estate and waiting for the value to go up. In an alternate world where that happened, there is no reason to assume that the HP parcel would have wound up as housing. It might have, but the most likely outcome is it would have remained as the "higher and better" commercial use.

[1]: In residential development there can even be an inverse correlation between entitlement costs and affordability: i.e. an SRO will probably face more political friction than luxury apartments.

[2]: http://millenniumptrs.com/ see Christopher M. Jefferies profile.

[3]: Even commercial developers couldn't make the numbers pencil out for commercial reuse of the existing buildings.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by cft on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:51PM (#17087711)
That's one of the fundamental problems "bugs" with popular democracy- most popular decisions are often far from the best.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by Shivetya on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:00PM (#17087761)
Green lining, red lining of old disguised with terms and claims that make you feel guilty opposing.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by mc32 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:20PM (#17087895)
I’d say even the present form of rent control needs reform. People should be means tested every so often so that you don’t end up with situations like where the burning man self described founder, mr. Harvey, who had money kept his rent controlled apt till the end.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by intopieces on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @09:24PM (#17087908)
> People should be means tested every so often

This would create disincentives for seeking a higher salary (because an increase in salary might be offset by getting kicked out of your BMR unit).

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by mc32 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @10:49PM (#17088341)
That’s okay, if people wanna shoot themselves in the foot and undermine their own career development, so be it, but often enough you have people who can afford market rate housing living in rent controlled properties, more or less undercutting the programme itself.
Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by api on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:32PM (#17087605)
> they have alienated many lower-income voters.

It seems like lower income voters reliably vote against their economic self-interest across the United States.

Re:The American Housing Crisis Might Be Our Next Big Politic... by Larrikin on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @08:48PM (#17087692)
Which voting block, besides rural land owners, does this?