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Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by bradleyjg on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:53AM (#17047694)
What I don’t understand is why no major mobile carrier is offering a solution to this. It’s a pretty competitive market and this could be a big selling point.

When the isp wars were going strong, before broadband put everyone under the thumb of monopolists and also before gmail, spam filtering was a serious competative advantage.

Why can’t phone companies take an RBL like approach? If your VoIP service garners too many complaints because you are selling to robocallers then you don’t get to have calls delivered to e.g. ATT mobile customers anymore?

Are there legal or technical interconnection requirements that would make such a thing impossible?

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by pboutros on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:56AM (#17047714)
I think the answer is that it is not a pretty competitive market.

The two biggest carriers have a 1-2% monthly churn rate.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283511/average-monthly-c...

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by hunter23 on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:44PM (#17049344)
2% monthly churn is not low. That annualizes to ~25% which is significant. The cost per acquisition of getting a new customer is actually quite high so their churn numbers definitely hurt them.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by kingnothing on Friday May 11, 2018 @07:45PM (#17051526)
When there are only 4 carriers in the US, it doesn't really matter. AT&T will lose a customer to Sprint, Sprint loses one to T-Mobile, T-Mobile loses one to Verizon, and Verizon loses one to AT&T. No one is getting rid of their cell phones.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rtkwe on Saturday May 12, 2018 @06:22PM (#17056323)
The point is they still have to spend the money to make keep their flows positive otherwise they'll bleed customers to the other 3 and die eventually.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by acdha on Friday May 11, 2018 @12:08PM (#17048462)
T-Mobile offers it as a free option with two levels: labeling the call as Scam Likely and blocking it outright. The latter is quite effective - I was getting 5+ calls per day and it’s now 1-2 per week.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by joemag on Friday May 11, 2018 @03:28PM (#17050186)
The “Spam Likely” determination is fairly unreliable, IMO. They have labeled my doctors office “Scam Likely”, while many “Scam definitely” calls have not been labeled.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by StudentStuff on Friday May 11, 2018 @04:00PM (#17050408)
T-Mobile's handling of "Scam Likely" seems to be spotty at best, with quite a few false positives. Additionally, their 3rd party vendor seems to be wanting to audit businesses that are mis-identified: https://feedback.fosrvt.com/
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by acdha on Saturday May 12, 2018 @09:13AM (#17053903)
I haven’t had a single false positive. I get 1-2 false negatives per week but haven’t found an iOS call blocker which had comparable or better accuracy.

That’ll probably require fixing the broken design of the telephone system.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by kolpa on Friday May 11, 2018 @08:29PM (#17051712)
Is it perhaps because scammers have impersonated your doctor's phone number?
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by mark-r on Friday May 11, 2018 @06:15PM (#17051119)
Interesting. I assumed that Scam Likely was a Google feature, not T-Mobile.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by s73v3r_ on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:17PM (#17049098)
That's T-Mobile? I thought it was Google Voice.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by r00fus on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:59PM (#17049473)
Definitely TMO - it's on the billing statement (free line item).
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by kevin_thibedeau on Friday May 11, 2018 @05:13PM (#17050856)
Only for postpaid accounts. T-mobile treats its prepaid customers like garbage. They even refuse to register correct callerID info for numbers they assigned in violation of E911 requirements.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rayiner on Friday May 11, 2018 @10:57AM (#17047722)
Blocking calls from certain VoIP services is almost certainly going to be a violation of common-carrier rules (which still apply to phone service no matter what happens with broadband).

At a technical level, spam filtering relies heavily on analyzing email text. Doing similar analysis on voice calls is way harder. Also, there's UI issues. You can redirect suspected spam emails to a folder the user can inspect for false positives. What do you do with a call that hits the robocall filter?

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by afo on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:56PM (#17049447)
Actually, the FCC clarified their rules a few years back that carriers CAN block robocalls.

More details here: https://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/fcc-clarifies-robocal...

Note that Ajit Pai (then a commissioner, not chairperson like now) voted AGAINST this.

Full disclosure: We (Nomorobo) advocated to the FCC to allow carriers to block robocalls.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rayiner on Friday May 11, 2018 @02:53PM (#17049919)
It's worth reading Pai's actual dissent: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-15-72A5.pd.... Among his reasons for dissenting is that the Commission was unwilling to "establish[] a safe harbor so that carriers could block spoofed calls from overseas without fear of liability."

All this occurs against the background of the Communications Act's common-carrier obligations, and the FCC's call-completion rules, which generally prohibit blocking calls. What the FCC did in the order you linked is to simply say "nothing in the Communications Act or our rules or orders prohibits carriers or VoIP providers from implementing call-blocking technology that can help consumers who choose to use such technology to stop unwanted robocalls."

Is that a safe harbor? No, as the next sentence clarifies, what can be blocked depends on the nature of the call: "Additionally, in the interests of public safety, we strongly encourage carriers, VoIP providers, and independent call-blocking service providers to avoid blocking autodialed or prerecorded calls from public safety entities, including PSAPs, emergency operations centers, or law enforcement agencies; blocking these calls may compromise the effectiveness of local and state emergency alerting and communications programs."

As explained in other posts here, it's hard for a carrier to tell what is a robocall. What is an "unwanted" robocall is even harder--it's a heavily-litigated issue in the TCPA context. (In fact, the rest of the order was about expanding what counts as an unwanted robocall in violation of the TCPA).

That leaves carriers between a rock and a hard place--it they block over-inclusively, businesses who think they fall into a TCPA exception could sue them for violating their common-carrier obligations. Then they get to litigate whether that business falls within the scope of the "unwanted robocalls" the FCC referred to (but did not define). Carriers have a huge incentive to not wander into that morass by offering call-blocking features.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by wtallis on Friday May 11, 2018 @07:44PM (#17051518)
> so that carriers could block spoofed calls from overseas without fear of liability

I don't really want my carrier deciding what calls to block. I just want them to ensure the veracity of caller ID data so that I can perform useful blocking at my end. There shouldn't be anything stopping them from removing fraudulent and unverifiable caller ID info from the calls they route my way. That leaves me free to block calls that lack caller ID info, and I'm assuming all the risks that entails.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by afo on Friday May 11, 2018 @04:05PM (#17050435)
Completely agree. For the carriers, robocall blocking is not a technical problem, it's a legal/liability one.

This makes third party call blocking products a better/easier solution for carriers to recommend as a solution.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by bradleyjg on Friday May 11, 2018 @12:26PM (#17048628)
Later on spam filtering relied on analyzing email text, but before that was available there was the blunt instrument of blackholing ISPs that refused to police their users.

That approach could work here.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rayiner on Friday May 11, 2018 @12:54PM (#17048870)
I remember Bayesian spam filters being the first widely used ones. But it was a long time ago.

It’s not clear to me that carriers would be allowed to do that, especially accounting for situations where VoIP traffic is laundered through a legitimate service (so the entity at the exchange boundary with the end-user carrier is a legitimate one).

Could they get around common carrier restrictions by offering that service as opt in? I’m not so sure about that either.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by dfxm12 on Friday May 11, 2018 @03:42PM (#17050304)
What do you do with a call that hits the robocall filter?

Send it straight to voicemail, where the user can inspect for false positives?

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by arbie on Monday May 14, 2018 @07:43PM (#17070420)
Most voicemailboxes are count limited (mine tops out at 20), so this strategy effectively just removes voicemail as a feature on your account.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by buckminster on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:11AM (#17047837)
Worse than that, international telecommunications are governed by treaties and the ITU. There is much bureaucracy in the way of a fix.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by nikanj on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:44AM (#17048194)
Should be technically possible to have ”these numbers can originate from this operator”. I’ve learned that if a phone looks to be from my area code, it’s actually from China. No idea what the robocaller is saying.

My operator should be able to have a short list of teleoperators in this zip code, and drop other calls.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by c22 on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:27PM (#17049197)
I've had the same phone number for over 20 years now, since LNP became a thing I've moved it a couple of times to different providers. Most recently I've parked it with a non-local voip provider which gives me a great deal of flexibility. It sounds like under your proposal no one would receive my calls?
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by nikanj on Friday May 11, 2018 @02:09PM (#17049553)
No matter what solution is proposed, there's always a subset of people who depend on that very behavior (see https://xkcd.com/1172/ ).

I think no-one receiving calls from parked non-local voip numbers would be an acceptable price to pay for the elimination of voip spam. You are free to disagree, tech is all about making compromises.

Incidentally, this quickly follows the path we took with SMTP. I can no longer telnet into a random SMTP server and dump incoming mail, which no doubt ruined the carefully honed scripts of many sysadmins.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by reaperducer on Friday May 11, 2018 @03:22PM (#17050137)
Something that helps is having an "undesirable" area code.

Telemarketers have learned that certain area codes convert at much higher rates than others. 202, 203, 212, 213 are prime targets. 242, 246, 406 and 701? Notsomuch.

If your NPA isn't important to you, get a number in those areas. (Some carriers will let you choose your area code as long as you're within the same billing center.)

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by ghostly_s on Friday May 11, 2018 @08:23PM (#17051676)
I'm feeling very grateful for sticking with the same phone number I've had since high school in rural Minnesota. 100% of numbers I receive from "my" area code that aren't my mother, are spam. :)
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by bewo001 on Monday May 14, 2018 @10:12AM (#17065668)
At least, remove the metadata if the originating carrier is not trustworthy.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by mikeash on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:14AM (#17047873)
AT&T has a Call Protect app which attempts to do this. It misses some, but my spam call volume has dropped quite a bit with it.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by exhilaration on Friday May 11, 2018 @12:00PM (#17048372)
I get almost no spam calls now, Google has call spam blocking built into Pixel phones and I went from a few spam calls a week to maybe 1 or 2 a month. And those 1 or 2 calls ring with a red warning that they're potential spam calls.

For reference, I've had the same New Jersey mobile number since 2001.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by joecool1029 on Friday May 11, 2018 @02:08PM (#17049550)
I believe it's an Android Oreo feature, not specific to the Pixel. I picked up a Nokia 6 for my dad and was surprised to see it blocking.

Google Voice has had spam lists forever, it's likely they are pooling the data from there.

T-Mobile does have the ScamID/block thing that can be controlled by shortcode. Documentation here https://explore.t-mobile.com/callprotection

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rconti on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:21AM (#17047929)
Thanks, looking into it now. iOS and Android app. I'm curious to see how this works. Probably can't get in the way of the calls on the device itself; pushes changes to the network maybe?

https://www.att.com/features/security-apps.html

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by mikeash on Friday May 11, 2018 @11:51AM (#17048271)
Some of it is just a matter of associating the name “Telemarketer” with a phone number. I still see those calls, but can immediately identify them.

Stuff it’s more confident about gets blocked outright. I think they’re automating what they’d do if you went into your account and manually blocked a number.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by rconti on Friday May 11, 2018 @12:57PM (#17048902)
I already have a /dev/null contact with a silent ringer but the telemarketers (especially the neighbor dialing) almost never uses the same number twice. Still hopeful the ATT app helps though.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by mikeash on Friday May 11, 2018 @02:23PM (#17049662)
Their list automatically updates based on whatever mysterious processes happen in their end, so it should be an improvement over manually blocking numbers after you get a spam call. Hopefully it will help a little bit. It's definitely not a cure, but we have to take what we can.
Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by JustSomeNobody on Friday May 11, 2018 @01:10PM (#17049027)
> What I don’t understand is why no major mobile carrier is offering a solution to this.

Carriers have no economic incentive to do this. Most people on AT&T aren't going to jump to Verizon because of the number of robocalls they get on AT&T. It's not worth the hassle of changing.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by reaperducer on Friday May 11, 2018 @03:16PM (#17050096)
>What I don’t understand is why no major mobile carrier is offering a solution to this.

I remember at one of the WWDC keynotes, Tim Cook announced this as a new iPhone feature. But he also noted that it was only available in China. I wonder if whatever the Chinese carriers have done can be imported to the United States.

My wife's iPhone will occasionally get an incoming call with small text below reading "Possible spam." She never uses her phone for voice, so she never answers the phone anyway.

Re:FCC fines robocaller record $120M by afo on Friday May 11, 2018 @04:07PM (#17050449)
I found that strange, too. Apple made it seem like it was China only but it's not.

Those features of CallKit are what we (Nomorobo) use to stop the robocalls.