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Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by mattigames on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @06:02PM (#16972145)
Exactly, free countries (or those who consider themselves as such) should make it fully illegal for private companies to aid in any kind of censorship in behalf of oppressive countries. But what we see in reality is the opposite, all companies trying to make it as cheap and as simple as possible to censor anything every government dislikes; meaning the liberal fantasy of allowing every private company to do as it pleases is not going to cut it in a world where every important event you can't find in Google for all practical matters never happened.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by qeternity on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:18PM (#16973010)
As you note, private companies are typically free to do as they please in free countries...that's kinda the point. You have no right to use AWS, so this is not censorship in the legal sense. And free governments also tend to have strong laws respecting the sovereignty of other nations, whether or not their laws are similar. Your frustration is noble, but it's also internally inconsistent.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by tonyztan on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @09:07PM (#16973260)
> "private companies are typically free to do as they please in free countries ... free governments also tend to have strong laws respecting the sovereignty of other nations"

Not always. For example, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prohibits U.S. companies from bribing foreign officials, even if the practice is accepted or prevalent in a foreign nation.[1] Just because another country has a particular policy does not mean we have to allow our companies to play along.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by leephillips on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @10:33PM (#16973612)
I don't think this is the counterexample that you intend. The prohibition is where this bribery is illegal in the foreign countries, even if it happens to be commonplace. Bribery is never "policy", else it would be called something else (as in the U.S., where we call it "campaign contributions").
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by prepend on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @10:42PM (#16973646)
It applies even when bribery is legal and does not distinguish whether bribery is legal or illegal.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by leephillips on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:07PM (#16973747)
After reading the linked Wikipedia page, if it's accurate then you seem to be correct. The act prohibits influencing foreign officials by giving them things of value, and doesn't mention whether that would be illegal in the foreign country. So it would seem that a U.S. corporation would be in violation of this law for doing in a foreign land what they routinely do within the U.S. (essentially all large U.S. businesses make, or aggregate, "campaign contributions" with the intent to influence lawmakers and other elected officials).
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by noobermin on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @03:18AM (#16974831)
A very good point about the hypocrisy of the American system. Campaign contributions do look very much like bribery.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by derefr on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:30PM (#16973090)
> private companies are typically free to do as they please in free countries...that's kinda the point

Er, no; in every "free" country, trade/export restrictions are still a thing. US corporations can't sell to North Korean citizens, or even Cuban citizens, despite not being in a state of war against either. And "munitions" (e.g. what encryption algorithms used to be) can be traded hardly anywhere. Just call censorship-enabling technologies "munitions" and it neatly solves the problem of who exactly US corporations can give them to.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @02:42AM (#16974664)
> And "munitions" (e.g. what encryption algorithms used to be) can be traded hardly anywhere.

That regulation is only in place to protect the established players ... and to ensure the CIA decides who gets the weapons.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by andrepd on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @10:20PM (#16973569)
That kind of reductionism is not helpful. It's not so simple as "private companies are free to do as they please". In fact many restrictions and regulations can and must be made to ensure that those private entities don't: poison rivers, murder people, manipulate children, steal from costumers, and countless other things. In principle at least, because we know that there are innumerable examples of companies doing just that when it profits them.

Nonetheless, among such regulations, designed to make private companies somewhat work for the general public interest, we can include not aiding censorship.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by mattigames on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:51PM (#16973185)
>You have no right to use AWS, so this is not censorship in the legal sense.

I guess you meant "duty" instead of "right"; and respecting the sovereignty of other nations means they can block any site they like or even internet itself if they desire, but it doesn't mean we have to allow local companies to comply with laws from those countries.

>As you note, private companies are typically free to do as they please in free countries...that's kinda the point.

That's not the point at all; lets put it this way, companies are NOT free to poison the water we drink or even poison the water of other countries drink just because their governments tell them to do so.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by qeternity on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @04:30AM (#16975045)
No, I mean right. You have no right to use AWS and thus if they restrict/prevent your usage of said service, on grounds that would otherwise infringe your rights, this is not illegal per se. I might have a right to free speech, but so does Amazon.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @10:59PM (#16973712)
> And free governments also tend to have strong laws respecting the sovereignty of other nations

This nearly made me cough my lunch over my keyboard.

Countries tend to have the habit of respecting other countries sovereignty right up until they don’t, at which point they will invade and occupy the other. Or carry out a proxy war, etc.

Even that is too generous. Which country of any influence doesn’t at least a few spies getting about doing their spying. Which major players aren’t subverting the course of things in at least a handful of regions at any time.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by koide on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @02:21AM (#16974556)
Sure, but they do maintain an official public stance of non intervention which is what's at hand here, because companies must abide by that official public stance, not by off the record spy activity.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @02:46AM (#16974686)
Ah, yep, sorry, I was going off in another direction there. Thanks for pointing that out.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by cryptonector on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @12:34AM (#16974077)
Private companies are not entirely free to do as they please in free countries. There's always some degree of non-free-ness. It's not at all unreasonable, and it would be at all surprising, to find free states forbidding cooperation with non-free states' oppression. Indeed, it happens all the time in some way or another.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by non_sequitur on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:00PM (#16972536)
"in a world where every important event you can't find in Google for all practical matters never happened"

Except Google isn't in China, and least I heard important events still happen there...the world isn't as FANG centric as western media would want us to believe.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by peteretep on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:53PM (#16972850)
> FANG

Stands for Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, apparently.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by StudentStuff on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @09:24PM (#16973338)
Three companies I don't use, and one that has lost nearly all of my search traffic due to terrible results for really simple queries. It will be interesting to see in what form they persist over the next few decades!
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by idonotknowwhy on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @11:44PM (#16973881)
> don't use

> nearly

So you do use it for search.

And two of these companies are probably hosting some of the websites you visit.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by StudentStuff on Thursday May 03, 2018 @04:50AM (#16984342)
I haven't been using Google much as of late, basic queries come back with crap results. Its as though they've screwed up their indexing so bad that large chunks of forums and (fairly static) support docs just aren't showing up or are ranked multiple pages back.

Perhaps some of the sites I visit are hosted on Google, but since I stopped visiting reddit (the awful redesign was the last straw), I see very little traffic hitting AWS or GCP IP ranges. Part of that is probably uBlock Origin doing its thing though!

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by abiox on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:11PM (#16972609)
> I heard important events still happen there

where did you hear about this? :)

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by daveheq on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:17PM (#16973005)
> all companies trying to make it as cheap and as simple as possible to censor anything every government dislikes

Not sure what you mean, I didn't see Napster fighting for censorship nor Craigslist fighting for FOSTA.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by munificent on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:23PM (#16972677)
> the liberal fantasy of allowing every private company to do as it pleases

How is that a liberal fantasy? I thought the standard liberal belief is in heavy regulation of business?

Or do you mean "liberal" in the general "lots of liberty" sense and not "in the liberal political camp"?

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by dnautics on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:50PM (#16972828)
in defense of the parent, it would have been helpful if the quoted phrase said "classical liberal" since the definition of liberal has drifted over the past 100 years, and there's a continental difference depending on if you're in north america vs europe.
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by daveheq on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:10PM (#16972962)
A liberal fantasy isn't heavy regulation of business, it's regulations to prevent/punish corporate robbers from exploiting the public. It's only a fantasy because corporations are buying politicians to let them further chain the populace and siphon their money in as many ways as they can get away with (and no, just not buying their product is often not a good enough solution or is hardly even a choice, like private prisons or the electrical grid).
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by proginthebox on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:33PM (#16972736)
Why do you say that the standard liberal belief is in heavy regulation of business? Liberal economics emphasize minimal regulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by munificent on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @08:08PM (#16972946)
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by jgmjgm on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:42PM (#16972783)
Liberal does not mean "left-wing". It is a political philosophy mainly informed by the work of John Locke. It places primacy on rights of individuals to basically to do as they like to the extent that it does not infringe on the rights of others to do the same.

This is a difficult bit. There are many different ideas about conflicting rights. Without going into these ongoing debates it is enough to say that liberalism is a big tent philosophy. It encompasses "left wingers" in one end where the state has many responsibilities to uphold individual liberties. At the other end are libertarians who say there is no need for government intervention for individuals to pursue their own ends. People can argue about rights and still be correct in calling themselves liberals.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by mattigames on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @09:11PM (#16973280)
Sorry I should have been clear I meant "anti-regulation advocates"
Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by jacobolus on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:35PM (#16972755)
Liberalism is a school of philosophy dating from the 17th century which generally espouses freedom of speech and association, the separation of church and state, pluralism and religious toleration, state protection for property rights and enforcement of contracts, open markets, popular control of the government, separation of powers, etc.

It is the dominant overarching ideology in America (the American “founding fathers” were mostly devoted liberals) and Western Europe, and there are many disagreements among different sorts of liberals.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by morganvachon on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:29PM (#16972716)
"Liberal" does indeed have tons of definitions and connotations. I would have called it more of a Libertarian fantasy (fully free, unregulated market and anti-censorship). That appellation too, though, is fraught with sometimes negative connotations; modern Libertarians in the political arena are derided as nothing more than neoconservatives hiding behind a Fawkes mask and stroking Nazi flags.

Edit for the downvoters: I'm not saying I agree with how Libertarians are seen, just reporting what I've observed. I tend to lean Libertarian on a lot of issues (freedom of movement, freedom of and from religion, live and let live, the right to be left alone, and so on), while also being a socially progressive liberal.

Re:Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over cen... by mirimir on Wednesday May 02, 2018 @02:22AM (#16974562)
I suspect that parent meant "libertarian fantasy".

Terms like "liberal" and "conservative" are virtually meaningless.