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Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by kbenson on Friday April 20, 2018 @12:24PM (#16886115)
Do you think allowing programs to be specified in plain English is a good idea?

We have "legalese" for the same reason we have programming languages. Terms have specific, sometimes slightly different or more narrow meanings to promote better understanding of intent in languages meant to specify a set of rules.

Specifying laws in "plain English" makes about as much sense to me as programming in English. You'll quickly find that for all but the most trivial of things the ambiguity of the language works against you.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by cptskippy on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:15PM (#16887147)
> We have "legalese" for the same reason we have programming languages.

The intended purpose of "legalease" is to eliminate ambiguity and to clearly outline terms and conditions, however it's often used to introduce ambiguity and obfuscate the actual intent of terms and conditions or to redefine existing known and understood laws.

"Legalese" is a programming language that allows unsafe pointers. It's compiler not only permits but encourages the use of preprocessor directives to redefine variables and operators. Everything is globally scoped. Nothing is protected. Everything can be overridden. Multiple inheritance is expected.

Pretty much everything we advocate against in a programming language is permitted and encouraged in "legalese".

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by kbenson on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:59PM (#16887555)
> The intended purpose of "legalease" is to eliminate ambiguity and to clearly outline terms and conditions, however it's often used to introduce ambiguity and obfuscate the actual intent of terms and conditions or to redefine existing known and understood laws.

Brief plain English would be about as bad. English with similar verbosity would be much worse. Obfuscating meaning in colloquial English is so trivial it happens on accident when communicating through text on a regular basis.

I'm not arguing that legalese is good, I'm just arguing that it's better than English, specifically because terms have been carved out over time to mean very specific things when used in a legal contract, and that provides for less ambiguity. It does require foreknowledge, but so does every sufficiently complex topic.

> "Legalese" is a programming language that allows unsafe pointers.

With regard to clarity, if legalese is C, English is dictating pseudocode to someone else who is translating to assembly on-the-fly.

> Pretty much everything we advocate against in a programming language is permitted and encouraged in "legalese".

So let's make it better! But coming up with a more specific legal language will require even more training to understand than is currently required, and that's the opposite of making it easily understood by the average person.

My own comparison would be that Legalese is like Perl. It is familiar enough that most laypeople can look at it and get a good idea of what's going on, but it's definitely easy to write in a way that is nigh incomprehensible, either by accident on on purpose. In addition, the familiar appearance of the language hides some advanced conceptual differences that bite the unaware (context in Perl, specific meanings of common terms in legalese).

A new version of legalese might be more akin to Rust or Haskell. Very specific, very exact, but it requires much more up-front learning to understand exactly how everything works and what it means.

In other words, the learning curve would be steeper but the dividends paid for learning it would be greater.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by Terr_ on Friday April 20, 2018 @07:01PM (#16889008)
Extending the source-code analogy, a lot of legalese needs more comments saying what the code is supposed to do, so that when a problem arises the legal system can actually debug it and better determine what raw code is is accidental or deliberately-misleading.

Unfortunately some of those comments are never made, or are separate READMEs and not systematically tracked alongside the code itself.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by ende on Saturday April 21, 2018 @12:14AM (#16889946)
That’s a very interesting idea. I feel like the next logical step after that would be unit tests.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by lazyman75 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @12:34AM (#16889996)
I agree, "write-only" Perl is perfect analogy
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by mieseratte on Friday April 20, 2018 @12:33PM (#16886227)
> Do you think allowing programs to be specified in plain English is a good idea?

The difference is that one is expected to consent and be beholden to something they could not reasonably understand without paying a large amount of money to a specialist.

That I write my code in brainfuck is of no consequence to someone, unless that brainfuck is potentially going to incarcerate them.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by kbenson on Friday April 20, 2018 @12:46PM (#16886362)
> That I write my code in brainfuck is of no consequence to someone, unless that brainfuck is potentially going to incarcerate them.

If you write software to control medical equipment in Brainfuck, it's potentially of consequence to a great many people. Same for autonomous driving routines.

Trying to make things clearer is a good cause. Expecting that everything can be made clear enough for the average person is a fool's errand.

Do we expect the circuit layouts of CPUs to be understandable by everyone? Because we are surely affected by those, in very many aspects of our lives.

Do we expect the full engineering and aeronautics behind an airplane to be understood by everyone? Everyone who flies puts their lives on the line based on those principles and the engineers getting it right.

Do we all expect to understand the numerous ways in which our bodies can get hurt, or interact with chemicals, or develop diseases? We trust doctors to figure out the complications there.

In each case, we've trusted domain experts to sort through the very complex topic and distill the knowledge into a useful form for us. In each case, we also generally know a core amount of the topic to help us navigate the everyday portions. CPUs work by providing a very low level core set of instructions that can be followed. Airplanes work through thrust, airflow and lift. Our bodies deteriorate over time, and if we put bad stuff in, they don't do as well, and some common diseases are known (cold, flu, etc).

The law is no different. There's a core set of things people are aware of. As things become more specific, or a problem happens, we call in domain experts to help.

Expecting everyone to be able to read all of the legal code will never happen, nor should it happen. It's expecting too much out of the average person, and would also require the law be dumbed down in ways that were detrimental to it's interpretation.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by mieseratte on Saturday April 21, 2018 @05:55PM (#16893632)
> The law is no different. There's a core set of things people are aware of. As things become more specific, or a problem happens, we call in domain experts to help.

Using Brainfuck is an extreme example but you're taking it to its logical conclusion - off a cliff.

The difference is, the law affects and is applied to everyone. Contracts can and do affect the average person. However, only a domain expert has do deal in code.

We do not expect or require a normal person to read a 5,000 LOC piece of software, or risk giving up rights to participate in everyday society.

> Expecting everyone to be able to read all of the legal code will never happen, nor should it happen. It's expecting too much out of the average person, and would also require the law be dumbed down in ways that were detrimental to it's interpretation.

I'm certain we can put together a reasonable "tl;dr" requirement for contracts targeted at the layman, e.g.

"""

- You may use this application (See: Section A)

- You will pay X per month (See: Section B)

- Late fees may apply (See: Section B, Sub-Section 2)

- We may collect user data (See: Section C)

- We may sell user data (See: Section D)

- We reserve the right to update the terms of the service (See: Section E, Sub-Section 1)

- We reserve the right to cancel service for any reason (See: Section E, Sub-Section 2)

"""

Make the tl;dr non-binding so long as a reasonable person, a typical legal standard, would understand the legalese to have the outcome.

One need not write a "literate contact," nor abandon all of our legal history, terms of art, etc. to improve things to make them more approachable for a normal user.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by kbenson on Sunday April 22, 2018 @03:35PM (#16898072)
I have absolutely no problem with trying to make legal documents, contracts, TOS, etc more readable by providing additional information. I just think the idea of replacing what we have with something more like regularly spoken English would be problematic at best, because a lot of the problems we have with interpreting the law are because it's so close to an actual spoken language, and Human languages thrive on ambiguity.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Friday April 20, 2018 @01:36PM (#16886766)
> The difference is that one is expected to consent and be beholden to something they could not reasonably understand without paying a large amount of money to a specialist.

I've found that this is generally less true than I imagine it to be. A lot of law is not actually so difficult to understand. Legalese is still English, and Google is great for figuring out the odd meanings of certain terms of art.

Most of the exceptions I've come across (e.g., buying a house) are IMO actually intrinsically complex transactions. I could undestand, but it'd take so long. And the time taken would happen even if we only had the laws we needed and all those laws were written in plain english. In software terms, lots of essential complexity.

Going back to the article, the problem with Facebook's terms and conditions is definitely not understandability -- see https://www.facebook.com/policy.php. The average high schooler could understand. The problem is people caring enough to 1) find, 2) read, and 3) inconviencance themselves if they don't like the policies.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by Digit-Al on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:14PM (#16887133)
I beg to differ.

> Waving a 2-inch-thick printed version of the social network’s user agreement, Senator Lindsey Graham quoted a line from the first page, then intoned: “I’m a lawyer, and I have no idea what that means.”

1) Two inch thick I've read some pretty long books in my time but that takes the cake. Most people these days don't even have enough attention span to read a complete internet article. How do you expect them to plough through hundreds of pages of legalese?

2) “I’m a lawyer, and I have no idea what that means.” Do I even need to say any more?

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by x0x0 on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:41PM (#16887404)
You can simultaneously believe that

* FB is doing their absolute best to make sure no "user" understands what they have agreed to

* writing the law in "plain english" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my life. See the multi million dollar lawsuit this year about whether a missing Oxford comma changed wage rules for a class of truck drivers. Any attempt to write law in plain english introduces giant ambiguities [1].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.htm...

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by dhimes on Friday April 20, 2018 @03:21PM (#16887733)
That law you cited was not written in "plain English." It was Maine's legal code. And it was ambiguous.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by x0x0 on Friday April 20, 2018 @08:18PM (#16889288)
And plain english would have made that better?
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by dhimes on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:33PM (#16892961)
Easily.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by x0x0 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @06:34PM (#16893747)
In the sense of introducing far far more ambiguity and making the law incomprehensible, yes.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by dhimes on Sunday April 22, 2018 @09:22AM (#16896041)
You obviously didn't look at the law you are speaking about.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Friday April 20, 2018 @07:17PM (#16889085)
> FB is doing their absolute best to make sure no "user" understands what they have agreed to*

But before making this argument, one should go read FB's ToS and data policy. Here they are:

https://www.facebook.com/terms.php

https://www.facebook.com/policy.php

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by x0x0 on Friday April 20, 2018 @08:18PM (#16889286)
Where, precisely, is the bit where they steal data from my phone about sms and phone calls?
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Saturday April 21, 2018 @01:51PM (#16892393)
> Where, precisely...

Right here, clear as day: "We collect information from or about the computers, phones, or other devices where you install or access our Services, depending on the permissions you’ve granted"

Also notice that if they have that data, you explicitly gave permission to access phone/SMS data in the app install process; i.e., you granted those permissions.

> ...steal...

Again, that's the problem! Facebook didn't STEAL that data. They took it with your permission. And they were actually very clear in their policies about the fact that they could take pretty much anything you gave them device premissions to access.

This is NOT a "users can't understand legalese" issue. It's very clear from the above sentence in the data policy that Facebook has the right to record arbitrary shit off of your phone/computer.

This IS a "users don't care and don't have any data clawback rights" issue. Or perhaps a "users are too trusting" issue. But any high schooler could interpret the above sentence as meaning that Facebook does, technically, have the right to collect any information from your phone if you give device permissions.

The distinction is important because it determines appropriate solutions. The solution is NOT making ToS easier to read. The solution is stronger consumer data rights (aka a mechanism to clawback data after the fact) and better consumer education (aka be paranoid)

If you think that merely making ToS easier to read and understand will substantially change consumer behavior, you're in for lots of disappointment.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by x0x0 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @06:35PM (#16893750)
No, it's not clear at all, and wasn't clear to virtually anyone who agreed to it.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Sunday April 22, 2018 @11:49AM (#16896659)
Care to propose a rephrasing that's more clear? If the average person can't understand the meaning of that sentence, the only real solution is to improve K-12 English teaching.

> and wasn't clear to virtually anyone who agreed to it

Virtually everyone who agreed to it never bothered to even try to read the policy in the first place. So, really, what difference does that make?

Again, the fundamental point is that chasing ToS clarity/readability/length is a losing battle. The majority of consumers don't care enough to read, no matter how simple you make things. Improving this metric won't make a difference. This issue is a red herring. Focus efforts elsewhere: consumer education and consumer rights.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Friday April 20, 2018 @07:05PM (#16889032)
Facebook terms of service: https://www.facebook.com/terms.php

Facebook data policy: https://www.facebook.com/policy.php

I agree Lindsay Graham is a skilled orator and politician. But if he blew up the font size until those pages required two inches of 8x11 paper, he must have just terrible eyesight ;-)

Also, neither of those documents is terribly difficult to understand. Like... where, specifically, is Graham getting horribly confused?! Point to the concrete line in one of those two links that requires something beyond a high school education!

Now, I'm sure there's nuance I don't pick up on. But I definitely feel I can understand the ToS and privacy policy without consulting a lawyer.

I don't think some of the terms are fair. But that's a consumer rights issue, not a "legalese" issue.

More generally, on two occasions I've had to get in front of a real judge in a "real" courtroom and make an argument based upon some written piece of law I had to look up and interpret myself. In both cases, I was able to successfully convince a judge that I was on the right side of the law without the help of a lawyer. I'm certainly not saying that's always possible, but I do believe there is a lot of "learned helplessness" when it comes to digging through legeal code or contracts and reading legalese. It's a PITA sometimes, but in many many cases it doesn't require years of training.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by hiccuphippo on Friday April 20, 2018 @08:16PM (#16889283)
I wonder if it would be possible to create an AI that, given a legalese text, could output comments for each fragment explaining and showing examples of what it means. Now that I think about it, wasn't genius.com doing something like that but using crowdsourcing instead?
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by throwawayjava on Saturday April 21, 2018 @02:09PM (#16892488)
Privacy policies actually use this as a rhetorical trick to confuse users. E.g., they'll say stuff like "we may collect any device information you give permissions to access to do [reasonable thing A], [reasonable thing B], or for any other business purposes. Examples of device information include: [insert list of benign things]"

Or, to put emphasis on the important things:

"we may (read: WILL) collect ANY device information you give permissions to access to do [reasonable thing A], [reasonable thing B], or for ANY other business purposes. Examples of device information include: [insert list of benign things you should totally ignore]"

But here's the problem with the "AI tell us all" approach. If you use ML to mine examples from existing policy texts, you'll end up showing the user all of the benign stuff that the companies put in to reassure users, because that's what the corpus contains. Therefore, your AI will emphasize exactly the wrong types of examples.

Also, notice that this isn't even a legalese thing. There are no legal terms of art or long-winding difficult grammatical constructions. It's just plain old good rhetoric. And it's hard/impossible to legislate away persuasion.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by hiccuphippo on Friday April 20, 2018 @01:06PM (#16886535)
I always found the language in RFCs better than legalese. Just the fact that they specify up front what the words must, shall, required, etc mean makes it less ambiguous. I feel lawyers use the ambiguity of language to bend the law in the way they need at the moment.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by dhimes on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:22PM (#16887215)
Exactly. If the precision of the language of law was working we wouldn't need to fight over it in court. Our new tax code hadn't been read by anyone who passed it- and, as an accountant explained to me long ago- we won't know exactly what it means until we get to court.

Even if a reset is unsustainably simple, it's time for one.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by Retra on Friday April 20, 2018 @07:50PM (#16889210)
Even if the law worked mechanically, we still need to argue it in court, since the law cannot encode the complexity of the real world anyway. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to break laws, so long as they have sufficient justification for doing so.

For instance, you won't be guilty of violating a law if you are coerced to do so, and the court still needs to evaluate what level of coercion you underwent, and that fundamentally requires human empathy.

The law is not meant to be employed mechanically. It's there to make society more efficient when handling the easy cases.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by hiccuphippo on Friday April 20, 2018 @08:19PM (#16889293)
Courts would be the debuggers/testers. And their findings would need to be integrated into the legal code as they happen.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by dhimes on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:36PM (#16892978)
The problem is when it gets complex it redefines what should be the easy cases.
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by leggomylibro on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:31PM (#16887306)
We use programming languages for tasks that do not require human judgement.

If using your product requires the detailed understanding of a standard EULA, my judgement is that I would not like to use your product without training. Think of all the details in those paragraphs that I might mess up!

But using these products does not require the detailed understanding of a standard EULA. It only requires you to click 'I Agree'. The EULA is not there to inform the user, it is there to ensure that your exploitation of them will not be punished when they find out.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by PurpleBoxDragon on Friday April 20, 2018 @04:50PM (#16888344)
The issue is that the law is something everyone must live by or face dire consequences. Given this, is it better to have programming for law that is specific but which only few can use (and normally to their advantage), or to have a more ambiguous medium that is accessible to the majority?

The ideal, a specific language everyone is proficient in, is best, but it isn't possible.

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by GerryRzeppa on Saturday April 21, 2018 @12:52AM (#16890039)
Our Plain English development system - unique interface, simple file manager, elegant text editor, hexadecimal dumper, native-code-generating compiler/linker, and wysiwyg page layout facility (for documentation) - 25,000 sentences, is hardly a trivial application. Yet we wrote it, conveniently and efficiently, entirely in Plain English. And the "ambiguity" of the language actually helped.

In Plain English you can, for example, say "Clear the screen" or "Erase the screen" or other similar phrases and still get the same result. So we could type our thoughts the way we happened to be thinking them at the moment, and didn't have to remember (or look up) the exact syntax of the routines we wanted to call.

The instruction manual is here:

www.osmosian.com/instructions.pdf

And the whole shebang (less than a megabyte!) is here:

www.osmosian.com/cal-4700.zip

Just download and unzip. No installation necessary. Exactly the same on any version of Windows from XP to 10.

Please address questions and comments directly to me:

[email protected]

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by moate on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:18PM (#16887185)
But code allows for Plain English: Comments. And nobody writes code without clear comments right? Right? Dear god please tell me you people aren't doing that!?
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by reificator on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:59PM (#16887559)
Depends on what it is and how complex it is. Depends on how explicit the variables and functions can be named. Depends on whether the thing I want to express is a how or a why or a how to use. Depends on if it's a public API or an internal helper used in one place with an unambiguous name. Depends on whether the audience are first year CS students, 50 year old business majors, senior developers with years of experience, or all of the above.

Always do X, never do Y rules are rarely helpful.

Does the comment here really help with your understanding of the code? If you're just now being exposed to programming then it's not enough detail, if you've been programming for 20 years it's far too much noise.

    // Assigns the value of the expression 4 + 5 to x
    // where 4 and 5 are integer literals
    // and + represents the mathematical process known as addition.
    // This allows us to later refer to x by name, where it will be replaced by the value defined here.
    x = 4 + 5;
Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by moate on Friday April 20, 2018 @03:45PM (#16887936)
Without getting too spicy here: What I was saying is that comments allow for people to provide "plain English" context to their code by giving a summary of what the code does, something that most contracts don't do. I was trying to point out that the example OP was using is a flawed comparison.

Code comments are typically written for whoever they're written for. I understand that"Plain English" might be a 2 sentence summary, a line by line review of each step, or a 3 letter reference to a common phrase, but it doesn't change that you have a tool available to you to provide summary context for potentially confusing or complicated pieces of logic.

I was also making the joke that if you're writing extremely complex pieces of code and not providing some kind of comment to accompany it in a setting in which that code, you're probably doing it wrong.

Some people should do some things some of the time, and other things never, but not always. Things can include writing comments for code. fixt

Re:The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming by InclinedPlane on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:37PM (#16887372)
Legalese is not what you think it is, it contains perhaps even more ambiguity than plain English in many cases. As often as not legalese circles around the matter rather than addressing it directly and clearly.