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Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by ilamont on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:45AM (#16829019)
It's only a matter of time before someone invents glasses, masks, hats, or devices that are specifically designed to throw off these systems. Then the surveillance state will up the game by referencing other data - height, shoe type, clothing preferences, activated mobile phones, association with other known people ...
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by sametmax on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:12AM (#16829204)
That's the geek attitude here, thinking it's a technical problem. But it's a human one, and no amount of smartness will fix it.

If you have a surveillance state, it will not "will up the game by referencing other data". It will simply make the gears illegal, and the price to pay harsh. Now you won't dare wearing them and if you do, you are guilty even if you are not a criminal, and tagging yourself as such, making it easier for the police to find you.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by wpietri on Friday April 13, 2018 @10:10AM (#16830117)
Yes, exactly. And another element of the geek attitude is overestimating the number of people willing to adopt a burdensome technological solution in the name of (a very particular kind of) freedom.

Most people will just accept the new surveillance reality and then act according to the state's wishes, exactly as most drivers slow down when they see a cop by the side of the road.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Spooky23 on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:27AM (#16829302)
Exactly. The legal framework and precedent is not based on pervasive electronic surveillance.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Aunche on Friday April 13, 2018 @11:04AM (#16830613)
If China doesn't have the resources to stop all actual crime, they certainly don't have the resources to stop people from wearing makeup, sunglasses or hats.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by michaelt on Friday April 13, 2018 @11:40AM (#16831040)
Depends how many people are avoiding facial recognition.

A large railway station can have 15 to 100 million passenger entries per year [1]. That means if 0.1% of people hide from facial recognition, cops at such stations could arrest 40-270 people per day. And with a suspect arrested, a photo showing them in disguise, and a police witness, it's an open-and-shut case.

That's way more cases closed per cop-hour than investigating complex crimes like burglary, murder or rape. Just what you want, if your police chief is judged on their clean-up/arrest rates.

And if order of fewer people than that are avoiding facial recognition? Then you've got a surveillance state.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_statio...

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Aunche on Friday April 13, 2018 @12:22PM (#16831467)
You don't need a disguise. You just need some accessories or make up to throw off the neural network. Humans are still much better at facial recognition than computers, but even they can get thrown off by make up. There's no way to tell if someone is intentionally trying to avoid facial recognition or regularly wear makeup or sunglasses.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by onetimemanytime on Friday April 13, 2018 @12:46PM (#16831662)
>>they certainly don't have the resources to stop people from wearing makeup, sunglasses or hats.

You need to make one mistake, just one. Plus, these people stick like sore thumbs

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by maxxxxx on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:56AM (#16829093)
If people start using these this will mean that they have accepted that public space is a hostile environment you can't enter without protection. We are building a pretty sad future society.

Addition: and our best and brightest are working at Google and Facebook to develop the necessary infrastructure.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Lio on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:40AM (#16829397)
Yep, remember the old George Orwell quote from 1984:-

  "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
The future has more tall buildings than he might have imagined but it's going to be just as crap.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Clubber on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:24AM (#16829718)
That's legally been the case for decades. Anything in the public view is exempt from whatever privacy rights we have left, and has been for quite some time.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by mattmanser on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:36AM (#16829820)
That's not true, while technically true in a legal sense, practically we had privacy via anonymity in the masses. It took a large amount of effort to track a single person.

Of course governments and bussiness don't want this to change because they can take advantage of this with the new technology.

But it doesn't mean that the previous laws are appropriate for today, nor imo should any legal precedents apply any more because the situation has significantly changed.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Clubber on Friday April 13, 2018 @10:50AM (#16830479)
>That's not true, while technically true in a legal sense,

That is true in a legal sense. That's why I put "legally" at the beginning.

The point is there are no legal hurdles to overcome for the government. These are the most difficult and this is absolutely true. Legally we have very little if any privacy in public. The only hurdles are technological ones, which automate the inspection of people in public areas. (i.e. facial recognition cameras).

Police can spy on your in your own home legally, if you leave a window open, because you just made that part of your home public. They'll setup across your yard and watch you with telescopic lenses. Police also spy on people in their own homes using IR and thermal cameras, which cannot be defeated easily, and this crosses (leaps) the boundary of your home being private. Apparently the thermal radiation emitted is now public space. I remember this in court, but don't remember the outcome.

I suspect though that when these laws were made, lawmakers didn't anticipate the ease and scope of which automation could make spying. Maybe they'll reconsider, but the police departments have a lot of sway over lawmakers, so I seriously doubt it.

Have no doubt though, police aren't interested in your privacy, they are interested in arrest counts. Privacy laws are an inconvenient burden to their jobs and they will use any methods they can think of to circumvent your privacy rights and argue technicalities in court. They will usually win.

Of course, all of this was enabled with the War on Drugs.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by maxxxxx on Friday April 13, 2018 @02:16PM (#16832524)
The constution was written more then 200 years ago based on the world back then. Maybe it's time to adapt the rules to our world. I don't think the authors of the Constitution even remotely imagined the possibility that one institution could have perfect surveillance of the whole country. But that's where we are going if we don't change the rules.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Clubber on Friday April 13, 2018 @02:24PM (#16832602)
The constitution has plenty of privacy rights, our government just chooses to circumvent them through sly interpretation, backed up by the courts.

The legal ability of police to spy that we have today is such circumvention.

But to your point, if the government of the last 5 decades is willing to skirt the constitution as written, I'm not sure how much a new one with stronger verbiage will fair.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by maxxxxx on Friday April 13, 2018 @02:37PM (#16832725)
It seems the Constitution leaves a lot to room for interpretation. Otherwise placing people on the supreme court wouldn't be such a big deal. Tightening up some paragraphs would probably help a lot.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Jyaif on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:58AM (#16829107)
Gait recognition. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528835-600-cameras-...

Note that if you completely change everything about you, a system could detect that something is fishy because it can't match you with anyone. A work-around would then be to instead mimic someone (and make sure that the someone is not being seen by any camera at the same time as you, and that they could realistically be in the same place as you).

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Retric on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:05AM (#16829153)
Gait recognition fails because your gait changes regularly. Something as simple as a sprain and you move very differently, but even new shoes ends up making a noticeable difference.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by toss1 on Friday April 13, 2018 @10:15AM (#16830172)
Exactly, just put a pebble in your shoe, in different locations & shoes at different times, and your gait will be wildly different...
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by walshemj on Friday April 13, 2018 @01:01PM (#16831792)
Which is supposedly what Marilyn Monroe did in "some like it hot" to get a suitable wiggle in her walk.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by toss1 on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:24PM (#16852923)
interesting...
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by bsenftner on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:40AM (#16829850)
I'm not aware of any serious FR or Object Tracking system using gait successfully. It is discredited as useful.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Cthulhu_ on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:09AM (#16829183)
Nah, then the surveillance state will simply make those illegal, and trigger an arrest warrant when they are unable to detect a face.

This is already happening btw, with bans on facial covering clothing (e.g. the niqab, but it's automatically extended to balaclavas and full helmets when worn off of a motorcycle) in e.g. France.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by iwillreply on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:50AM (#16829056)
https://cvdazzle.com

Amongst some other projects by Adam Harvey centered on facial recognition: https://ahprojects.com/projects/

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by amarant on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:04AM (#16829146)
or something akin to 1-pixel-attack-tattoos: put a few strategical dots on your face and be recognized as "horse" on all cameras :)
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by ealhad on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:41AM (#16829412)
That made me laugh.

I don't think you would last long, though. And horses are probably not allowed at most concerts.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by amarant on Saturday April 14, 2018 @07:35AM (#16836905)
Glad I made you laugh
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by shubb on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:16AM (#16829229)
We carry phones that track our every move, and could probably stop them with little faraday bags. Credit card bags are popular, phone bags are not, so I think most people don't care sadly.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by isostatic on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:32AM (#16829334)
Kids today might not remember, but a big reason for carrying a phone traditionally was to receive a phone call. A farady bag is about as much use as turning it off.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by shubb on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:50AM (#16829944)
You still get phonecalls?

Most of the time people contact me by instant message or comments for social stuff, and emails for work stuff. It's rare that I get a call that wasn't pre-arranged.

Actually I'd feel rude phoning someone without arranging it first. Not terribly rude, but a little uncomfortable. What if they are driving or in an important meeting?

So maybe phones are there to let me check messages and alerts when convenient. A huge proportion of the money you paid for that phone went on the data modem after all. It isn't really a phone means voice, or sound. But folders on a computer are not made of paper. It's just a word.

Not that I'd suggest putting your phone in a bag.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by isostatic on Friday April 13, 2018 @10:28AM (#16830286)
> Actually I'd feel rude phoning someone without arranging it first. Not terribly rude, but a little uncomfortable. What if they are driving or in an important meeting?

Then they don't answer it. It's called self control!

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by michaelt on Friday April 13, 2018 @11:55AM (#16831198)
Alas, telephones give me no way to distinguish between a spam call and a call from a hospital because a loved one has been brought in unconscious.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by isostatic on Friday April 13, 2018 @12:22PM (#16831466)
Are spam calls really a problem in your country? I've taken 24 calls in the last 7 days, none of which were spam. I'm not sure the last time I received a spam call was.

LOL

Literally as I typed that above my phone started ringing, I didn't recognize the number, answered it, and it was a spam call. Lasted 12 second. That's the only one in my "recent" calls, which go back to March 27th. What are the chances.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by onetimemanytime on Friday April 13, 2018 @12:53PM (#16831721)
>>Actually I'd feel rude phoning someone without arranging it first.

Things have evolved to this? How do you arrange the phone call? Call them to ask if you can call them :) ? If you have to think about it or are unsure, then don't call them.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by mark_edward on Friday April 13, 2018 @02:12PM (#16832478)
There's this cool new thing called SMS...
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by onetimemanytime on Friday April 13, 2018 @05:40PM (#16834121)
sorry but you need to make your circle smaller. The people you pay (accountants, lawyers etc) will accept your calls by definition, but if your uncle is bothered by your phone call then you, in essence, have no uncle.

I'm happy to say that my problem is different, I'm not fond of phone calls, but when I call them, they're thrilled.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by lostlogin on Friday April 13, 2018 @01:57PM (#16832334)
I’m thinking isostatic is a fair bit younger than shubb. There is a marked change happening with regard to calls.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by tokenizerrr on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:02AM (#16829548)
Putting a phone in a faraday cage kind of blocks the purpose of having a phone with you.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by amelius on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:49AM (#16829042)
Perhaps burqas will become fashionable among men :)
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by Cthulhu_ on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:11AM (#16829198)
Those are / will be banned then, simple as. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by bsenftner on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:43AM (#16829876)
We have cameras that image right through fabric, so, forget burqas. Such cameras are used to identify terrorist by seeing right through those face scarves and ski masks they are often seen wearing.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by jacobush on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:00AM (#16829125)
Perhaps they already are
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by melvinmt on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:29AM (#16829757)
It’s not just what you wear and how you look. There are many more ways for AI to identify you: the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you move your hands or tilt your head, etc. Keeping track of all these subtle giveaways of yourself would be relatively easy for AI, much harder for humans to keep track of or to hide.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by isostatic on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:50AM (#16829048)
Or just ban face coverings when going through checkpoints (like stadium entries etc) -- same as they do at airports.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by bsenftner on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:36AM (#16829816)
Several different types of these physical deterrents to FR have been available for several years, and this is after state actors employed them for their own operations. The FR industry has multiple methods to mitigate, as well as recognizes that FR is merely one biometric of many possible identification methods. The passive nature of FR is great, but it is not the only technology with passive identification capabilities. FYI, I'm at a leader in the FR industry, writing the FR applications used by many. (www.CyberExtruder.com)
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by codecamper on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:07AM (#16829166)
Or maybe a completely realistic outer skin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY5KTVA_2ys

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by bsenftner on Friday April 13, 2018 @09:47AM (#16829916)
Already dealt with by an FR process called "liveness detection" - this is used to identify prosthetics on the face and similar methods of disguise. It entails looking for the blood flow pulse under your skin, correct temperature variations across the face and similar.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by amelius on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:50AM (#16829052)
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by rahimnathwani on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:49AM (#16829040)
Large sunglasses are often large enough to throw off the facial recognition systems.

But wearing large sunglasses in the evening, or a hat that covers part of your face, can be used as a signal that you're hiding something.

Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by JulianMorrison on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:51AM (#16829057)
1980s style New Romantics face paint as dazzle camouflage?
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by trisimix on Friday April 13, 2018 @08:54AM (#16829484)
Be more useful to invent an electronic that can cloak you, or jam the cameras.
Re:Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest susp... by nopressure on Friday April 13, 2018 @07:47AM (#16829036)
Those already exist.